Transcript of Dennis Rader sentencing August 17, 2005 Part Two:  the murders of Kathryn Bright and Shirley Vian


 3 STATE OF KANSAS,        )
 4 Plaintiff,   )
 5 vs.          )  
 Case No. 05 CR 498
                )   VOLUME II
 6 DENNIS L. RADER,       
                )   WEDNESDAY, 8-17-05
                )   SECOND A.M. SESSION
 7 Defendant.   )
 8 ________________________)

12           PROCEEDINGS had and entered of record
13 in the above-entitled case on August 17, 2005,
14 before the Honorable Gregory L. Waller, Judge of
15 Division No. 5 of the Eighteenth Judicial District
16 of Kansas.
19           The State of Kansas appeared by and through
20 its attorneys, Ms. Nola Foulston, District Attorney, Ms.
21 Kim Parker, Chief Deputy District Attorney, Mr. Kevin
22 O'Connor, Deputy District Attorney and Mr. Aaron Smith,
23 Assistant District Attorney, 535 North Main, Wichita,
24 Kansas, 67203.
25           The Defendant, Dennis Rader, appeared in

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1 person and by his attorneys, Mr. Charles S. Osburn,
 2 Chief Public Defender and Ms. Sarah McKinnon, Assistant
 3 Public Defender, 604 North Main, Suite D, Wichita,
 4 Kansas, 67203.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1                       I N D E X
 2 State's Witnesses     Direct
 3 CLINT SNYDER            4
 4 DANA GOUGE              42
 5 Certificate             75

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1                THE COURT:  All right.  We are back on
 2      the record in State vs. Rader.  The State may
 3      proceed with their next witness.
 4                MR. O'CONNOR:  State calls Detective
 5      Clint Snyder.
 7                    CLINT SNYDER,
 8      called as a witness, having been first duly
 9      sworn, testified as follows:
10                  DIRECT EXAMINATION
12  Q.  Sir, could you tell the Judge your name, please?
13  A.  Yes.  Clint Snyder.
14  Q.  And Detective Snyder, you are a member of the
15      BTK task force; is that correct?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  And were you assigned a case looking into the
18      murder of Kathryn Bright?
19  A.  Yes.
20  Q.  Now, could you give -- and again, you are
21      Detective Clint Snyder of the Wichita Police
22      Department?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  Now, could you tell -- give Judge Waller kind of
25      an idea of what happened to Kathryn Bright in

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      April of '74?
 2  A.  Yes.  April 4th of 1974 an intruder broke into
 3      the home of Kathryn Bright, confronted her and
 4      her brother, Kevin, as they returned home.
 5      During the course of this confrontation both of
 6      them were bound, the suspect attempted to
 7      strangle both of them during this confrontation
 8      and Kevin Bright was shot twice in the head.  He
 9      survived those injuries.  Kathryn succumbed to
10      injuries that was inflicted upon her during this
11      confrontation.
12  Q.  Now, let's talk about Kathryn just a bit.
13      Officer -- an officer arrived on the scene; is
14      that correct?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  There was a report of a shooting?
17  A.  That's correct.
18  Q.  And it's because Kevin had run out of the house
19      and some individuals had picked him up and taken
20      him to the hospital?
21  A.  That's correct.
22  Q.  Now, an officer -- do you recall the officer's
23      name that responded?
24  A.  Officer Landon.
25  Q.  And Officer Landon responded and what did he

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      discover when he got to Kathryn Bright's home?
 2  A.  When he came inside Kathryn was laying on the
 3      floor in the living room, face down in a pool of
 4      her own blood, clutching a telephone in her
 5      hand.  She was in and out of consciousness at
 6      that point.
 7  Q.  And was she able to communicate with this
 8      officer?
 9  A.  Yes.  He asked her what had happened to her.
10      She was able to lift up her blouse and show him
11      some stab wounds on her abdomen area and he was
12      able to get from her her name and he was able to
13      ask her if she knew who the perpetrator was.
14      And she said no.
15  Q.  And she was bleeding profusely?
16  A.  That's correct.
17  Q.  Now, Dennis Rader was arrested and he was
18      interviewed by law enforcement on February 25th
19      of this year and into the 26th; is that correct?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  Now, were you present when Dennis Rader was
22      interviewed by law enforcement?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And did you speak with Rader specifically about
25      the murder of Kathryn Bright?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes, I did.
 2  Q.  And during the course of that it was videotaped?
 3  A.  Correct.
 4  Q.  And you have reviewed the videotape?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  Now, in this PowerPoint presentation that's
 7      going to be coming up here we're going to have
 8      photographs of the crime scene, some autopsy
 9      photographs and we're going to have some quotes
10      that were pulled out, quotes by Dennis Rader
11      that were pulled out from the interview.  So at
12      various times I'm going to ask you to take a
13      look behind you and ask you some questions about
14      what's up on the scene (sic).  Okay?
15  A.  Okay.
16  Q.  Now, you told detective -- or you told Dennis
17      Rader that you were there to talk to him about
18      the Kathy Bright case?
19  A.  That's correct.  I went in, introduced myself,
20      told him who I was, told him I was with the
21      Wichita Police Department, told him that I had
22      been assigned the Kathy Bright homicide.  And
23      that was just introductions I made before the
24      interview.
25  Q.  And right after telling him that your case is

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      the Kathy Bright case, I believe there's
 2      something up on the screen, do you recall what
 3      Dennis Rader had to say about Kathy Bright?
 4  A.  Yes.  He commented sweet kid.  And asked me
 5      well, what do you want to know about it.  I told
 6      him I just wanted to know about what occurred.
 7      And then he told me that he called her Project
 8      Lights Out.  And then he discussed with me about
 9      the date that that occurred, which was April
10      4th, 1974.
11  Q.  So again, going back, he's got projects, those
12      are his names for the people he hunted, stalked,
13      trolled after, whatever you want to call them?
14  A.  Correct.  And he would call them projects, or
15      PJs, for short.
16  Q.  And Kathy Bright was a sweet kid and she was
17      Project Lights Out?
18  A.  Right.
19  Q.  Behind you there's a photograph.  Can you tell
20      us who that is a photograph of?
21  A.  Yes.  That is a photo of Kathryn Bright.
22  Q.  And when Kathryn Bright was murdered how old was
23      she?
24  A.  21 years of age.
25  Q.  Now, did Rader tell you how he came upon or

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      selected Kathy Bright?
 2  A.  He said he was driving through the area one day
 3      and spotted her going inside the house with a
 4      friend.
 5  Q.  Now, did he say what he was doing?  Did he have
 6      a name for it?
 7  A.  Yes.  I believe he said he was trolling at that
 8      point.
 9  Q.  And did he say why he was drawn to Kathy Bright?
10  A.  He said that she fit that profile.
11  Q.  And did he explain to you what the profile might
12      be?
13  A.  He said that he couldn't really explain what it
14      was, but it was just something about her that
15      drew his attention to her.
16  Q.  But it was the BTK profile, is what he would
17      explain later?
18  A.  Right.
19  Q.  Now, when he said he was out trolling and when
20      he wanted to actually act upon his projects,
21      when he was -- when he had planned to kill
22      somebody, did he tell you what he did to get
23      ready for that?
24  A.  Yes.  He would -- usually the trolling stage
25      would then move to the stalking stage, where he

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      would conduct surveillance on his potential
 2      victims, walking around the area.  He said he
 3      actually sat off her house in his car and
 4      watched the comings and goings from the house.
 5  Q.  And did he tell -- did he do any kind of
 6      exercises to get ready to strangle somebody?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  And what did he do?
 9  A.  He said he would sit around with his squeeze
10      ball and he demonstrated that he would use the
11      squeeze ball, squeezing it to get his hand
12      strength up to where he would be able to
13      strangle someone.  He explained the reason for
14      that was is because it was extremely difficult
15      to strangle a person, that your hands would
16      become numb and that sometimes it would take two
17      to three minutes to actually strangle someone.
18  Q.  So he wanted to work out to get ready to kill
19      somebody?
20  A.  Right.
21  Q.  Now, this is a photograph, can you tell us what
22      this is a photograph of?
23  A.  Yes.  This is a photograph depicting the front
24      of the residence at 3217 East 13th Street, here
25      in Wichita.  This is where Kathryn Bright was

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      murdered.
 2  Q.  And this door here that I'm circling with the
 3      cursor, would that be the door that Officer
 4      Landon went into?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  Now, did he -- again, you've talked a little bit
 7      about it, about trolling; is that correct?
 8      These are some of the things he told you about
 9      what he did?
10  A.  Right.
11  Q.  And he even said he went up to the house and
12      knocked a few times?
13  A.  Yes.  He said he'd went up to her house, knocked
14      a couple times and no one had answered the door.
15  Q.  And on this day when he decided he was going to
16      kill Kathryn Bright, did he tell you how he got
17      ready for that?  There's a quote up behind you.
18  A.  Basically, again, this is describing that he saw
19      her go into the house one day, he thought to
20      himself well, this might work.  And that after
21      Otero he had his stuff ready to go, he would
22      have items with him, tape, ropes, binding
23      material, whatever he might need for what he
24      called a hit and he would carry that stuff
25      around with him.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  And he picked Kathy Bright out and he decided
 2      that he was going to -- that this -- gee whiz,
 3      this might work?
 4  A.  Right.
 5  Q.  And did she (sic) say anything about her
 6      brother -- about her brother, Kevin?
 7  A.  Yes.  He said that he wasn't aware that she had
 8      a brother.
 9  Q.  In his trolling that he did and in stalking of
10      her, he didn't discover whether she had a
11      brother?
12  A.  Right.  He said that he was particularly
13      concerned, when he was in the stalking stage or
14      picking a potential victim, about whether or not
15      they had what he called a present male.  He
16      didn't -- he wanted to avoid a present male in
17      the home, due to the confrontation that he had
18      had at Otero, with Mr. Otero.
19  Q.  And he was afraid of men; is that right?
20  A.  I believe that's correct.
21  Q.  And this is a photograph of Kevin Bright?
22  A.  That's correct.
23  Q.  How old was Kevin Bright when Rader came into
24      their home, killed his sister and shot him?
25  A.  Kevin was 19 at that time.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Did Rader indicate to you how he intended -- he
 2      had, what I believe has been testified to
 3      before, he had things that he called a russ (ph
 4      sp); is that correct?
 5  A.  Yes.  A ruse or a russ is what he referred to,
 6      which was actually a ruse.
 7  Q.  We might know it as a ruse, right?
 8  A.  Right.
 9  Q.  And -- but he called it a russ.  Did he indicate
10      to you what russ he was going to use on the
11      Brights?
12  A.  Yes.  He was going to carry some books, like
13      school textbooks with him, he would pretend
14      that he was a WSU student, looking for
15      somebody's house in order to study or work on a
16      project.
17  Q.  And did he tell you that this is a -- this was
18      his plan, did he tell you whether he actually
19      did it?
20  A.  Yes.  He said he -- the day that he murdered
21      Kathryn Bright that he had taken some books with
22      him, to use that as his ruse to get into the
23      house.
24  Q.  Now, he describes to you in a matter of fact
25      manner how he -- how he killed Kathryn Bright;

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      is that correct?
 2  A.  Yes.
 3  Q.  And so when he's describing to you how he went
 4      up there to the porch with his school books and
 5      he discovered -- he says things like lo and
 6      behold, right?
 7  A.  Right.
 8  Q.  And what did he find out about the screen door
 9      in the back?
10  A.  He went back there after he'd been to the front
11      door, no one had answered, and the screen door
12      was locked so he just punched it out, reached
13      in, unlatched it and went in.
14  Q.  Now, he did tell you some things that he did
15      differently than the Oteros; is that correct?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  And what were some of those things?
18  A.  He did not take his hit kit or some of the
19      materials that he had taken with him on Otero,
20      he did not cut the phone line, did he -- like he
21      did on Otero.
22  Q.  Now, and would he explain to you later that was
23      the reason he didn't want it to be -- what did
24      he want the police to think?
25  A.  He didn't want the police to make the linkage

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      between the Otero murder and the Kathryn Bright
 2      murder.  He wanted to change his MO so that the
 3      police would think this was a different crime,
 4      committed by a different perpetrator.
 5  Q.  Because Rader never wanted to get caught; is
 6      that correct?
 7  A.  That's correct.
 8  Q.  Even during the course of the interview he told
 9      you he wasn't planning on getting caught?
10  A.  That's correct.
11  Q.  He just said he got outsmarted by law
12      enforcement?
13  A.  Basically, yes.
14  Q.  Okay.  Now, this is a crime scene photograph of
15      the Bright home from -- what are we looking at
16      here?
17  A.  Okay.  This is the back side of the house and
18      this would be -- this picture depicts the screen
19      door that he said that he punched the screen in,
20      in order to unlatch so that he could gain entry
21      into the house.
22  Q.  And then in the back there, inside the screen,
23      that is the -- what door is that?
24  A.  That's the door that leads into like the kitchen
25      area, the back area of the house.  In this --

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Does this --
 2  A.  Yeah, this picture depicts that door and it
 3      depicts the glass that's broken out of the door.
 4  Q.  And what did Rader say he did with the glass?
 5  A.  He said he broke the glass, unlocked the door
 6      and then he went in and then he actually tried
 7      to sweep up the glass.  He was concerned that
 8      they might -- or when she returned she might
 9      enter the back door and she might see all the
10      glass and that she might freak out and leave and
11      he wouldn't be able to accomplish what he wanted
12      to.
13  Q.  And did responding officers indicate in their
14      reports that the glass was swept up?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  Now, did Rader tell you what he did in order to
17      get control of Kevin and Kathryn Bright?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And what did he tell them?
20  A.  He said that as they entered the front door of
21      the residence he had his gun out and he told
22      them that he was wanted in California and that
23      he just wanted some money, some food and their
24      car, told them that there were wanted posters
25      out for him and basically trying to put them at

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      ease, just thinking that he was going to tie
 2      them up and then leave.
 3  Q.  So he's lying to them?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  Because he indicated to you that his full intent
 6      was to kill Kathryn Bright?
 7  A.  That's correct.
 8  Q.  And now that Kevin walked in with Kathryn, did
 9      he indicate to you what was going to have to
10      happen with Kevin?
11  A.  Yes.  He said he reiterated several times that
12      he was going to have to get Kevin out of the way
13      in order to accomplish what he wanted to with
14      Kathryn.
15  Q.  All right.  And what did he have Kevin do?
16  A.  He had Kevin tie up -- I'm sorry, he had --
17      yeah, that's correct, he had Kevin tie up
18      Kathryn and then he tied up Kevin.  He said he
19      used clothing materials, bandanas, T-shirts,
20      other items that he found in the house, nylon
21      stockings.  He tied Kevin up in the first
22      bedroom directly to the left of the front door
23      and tied Kevin to the bed.  He then moved
24      Kathryn into the other bedroom and where he
25      subsequently tied her to a chair inside of that

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      bedroom.
 2  Q.  Now, this is a photograph that was taken at the
 3      hospital of Kevin Bright, of his neck.  And what
 4      are those marks that go across his neck there?
 5  A.  Those marks depicted in that photograph indicate
 6      ligature marks on the neck of Kevin Bright.
 7  Q.  Now, up in here, as you can see maybe at the
 8      top, you see these little dots, would that be
 9      what is referred to as petechial hemorrhaging or
10      do you know?
11  A.  I believe that's probably some stippling or some
12      gun powder that is in the face of Kevin, from
13      the gunshot injury.
14  Q.  So that might actually be blowback from the gun?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  Now, did he tell you what he did before he
17      started to strangle -- as he put it, before I
18      started to strangle him, what did he do?
19  A.  Yes.  He said that he turned on the stereo.  He
20      did that in order to muffle any strangling or
21      gagging noises so that Kathryn wouldn't be able
22      to hear what he was doing to Kevin.
23  Q.  And so this gives an indication that he knew
24      exactly what was -- he was going to do and he
25      needed to turn the stereo up so neither one

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      would hear what was going on?
 2  A.  Correct.
 3  Q.  And what did he say about Kevin?  Why did he --
 4      did he say why he had to strangle Kevin?
 5  A.  He wanted to have his time with Kathryn and so
 6      he had to get Kevin out of the way.
 7  Q.  Kevin would be kind of a problem for him?
 8  A.  Right.
 9  Q.  Would disturb his plan?
10  A.  Correct.
11  Q.  And did he say what he was -- he told you he had
12      to get her (sic) out of the way before he did
13      anything to Kathleen?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And he uses the word Kathleen, the name
16      Kathleen?
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  And in order to get him away did he say -- to
19      get rid of him, to get him out of the way, did
20      he say what he did to Kevin Bright?
21  A.  Yes.  He tried to strangle him.
22  Q.  And did he say he had some problems with the
23      items that he used to try to strangle him?
24  A.  Yes.  He said that because he hadn't brought his
25      good stuff or his chords with him, that he had

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      some problems with the clothing material and
 2      that Kevin was actually able to escape and they
 3      struggled.
 4  Q.  Now, he started strangling him, where did he
 5      tell you Kevin had his hands?
 6  A.  At the time he was being strangled Kevin was
 7      tied up.
 8  Q.  All right.  So Kevin was tied and he goes in to
 9      strangle him and he says Kevin gets loose, gets
10      to his feet?
11  A.  Correct.
12  Q.  And what did Mr. Rader say he did then when
13      Kevin got to his feet?
14  A.  He said that when Kevin got to his feet he'd
15      brought two guns in with him, one was a .357
16      Magnum that he had in a shoulder holster and one
17      was a .22 pistol that he said he had tucked into
18      his waistband.  He said I did one of those John
19      Wayne things and he showed where he grabbed the
20      gun in his waistband and then he pointed and he
21      went (witness uses onomatopoeia) and he shot
22      Kevin.
23  Q.  He actually made the noise for you?
24  A.  Yes.
25  Q.  And during the course of this interview he would

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      stand up and demonstrate to you the things that
 2      he did, right?
 3  A.  Yes.
 4  Q.  And during this did you get a feeling as to
 5      whether or not Mr. Rader was sorry about what he
 6      had done?
 7  A.  No.
 8  Q.  And would it be fair to say that Mr. Rader was
 9      actually very proud of what he had done?
10  A.  Yes.  He commented to me at one point, I'm
11      sorry, I know this is a human being, but I'm a
12      monster.
13  Q.  And in this particular one this man, or coward,
14      that has killed the two little kids, compares
15      himself to John Wayne?
16  A.  Right.
17  Q.  And did he say what happened then?
18  A.  He said that after he shot Kevin that he went
19      down.
20  Q.  And he said to you, well, I thought well, I got
21      him?
22  A.  Right.  He thought that Kevin was probably dead
23      at that point.
24  Q.  And at this time then he could turn his
25      attention to who?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Kathryn.
 2  Q.  And did he say what he did -- there's another
 3      quote back here, if you could take the time to
 4      read it, what he said he did then?
 5  A.  Yes.  As he returned to the other bedroom where
 6      he had Kathryn tied up to a chair, at that point
 7      she was basically hysterical because she had
 8      heard the gunshot and was asking him what did
 9      you do to my brother, what did you do to my
10      brother.  And he tried to console her and say I
11      just wounded him, he's okay.  When I get out of
12      here I'll call the police and he'll be okay.
13  Q.  Lying to them?
14  A.  Right.
15  Q.  And she, Kathryn, being tied to a chair and
16      hearing a gunshot and being told her brother was
17      shot, she started to do what, according to
18      Rader?
19  A.  She started to struggle to try to get out of her
20      bindings that had her tied to the chair.
21  Q.  And he actually told you she started going
22      hysterical and going crazy?
23  A.  Right.
24  Q.  And then did he tell what happened then?  Did he
25      give you a description of what happened then?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      There's a quote that I have back up on the
 2      PowerPoint.  Now, this is back at Kevin Bright;
 3      is that correct, this quote?
 4  A.  Right.  He returned -- he returned back to Kevin
 5      to check on him and as he came in he kicked
 6      Kevin to see if he was still alive.  And
 7      apparently Kevin got up and they started
 8      struggling again.  And Rader said that during
 9      this struggle Kevin was actually able to get a
10      hold of his -- again he showed where he had his
11      .357 Magnum in a shoulder holster, Kevin was
12      actually able to get his finger on the trigger
13      and they were struggling over the gun and Rader
14      was trying to keep the gun from discharging,
15      trying to get his finger behind the trigger so
16      that it wouldn't go off.  And while this
17      struggle was going on that he pulled his .22
18      pistol again and shot Kevin again with the
19      pistol.
20  Q.  All right.  So we have two guns?
21  A.  Correct.
22  Q.  All right.  And what's the size of a .22
23      compared to a .357 Magnum?
24  A.  Well, a .22 is the smaller end of the spectrum,
25      whereas the .357 would be -- the bullet or

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      projectile would be a lot larger on the spectrum
 2      of sizes of bullets.
 3  Q.  Now, how big was -- do you have any idea how big
 4      Kevin Bright was?
 5  A.  I believe, according to the reports, he was
 6      around five six, 115 pounds at that time.
 7  Q.  And Rader would have been bigger than him; is
 8      that correct?
 9  A.  Yes.  Rader had told us that after he got out of
10      the service he was around five 10, 175 to 185
11      pounds.
12  Q.  So at this time he's thinking that this five
13      six, 19 year old kid is going to kill him, is
14      going to get the best of him?
15  A.  Right.  He actually made a comment to me that
16      you know, he's a big guy.
17  Q.  But he wasn't a big guy, was he?
18  A.  No.
19  Q.  Now, the .357, did he indicate to you why he
20      didn't necessarily want to use that .357?
21  A.  Not that I recall.
22  Q.  Would it be because it might make too much
23      noise?
24  A.  Oh, yes, that's correct.  He did make a comment
25      about the .357 would make a lot more noise than

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      a .22 pistol.
 2  Q.  So again, this goes to the actual planning that
 3      he had in his mind, he actually thought about
 4      what weapon he would use?
 5  A.  Correct.
 6  Q.  And again, we have a -- I guess he liked to be a
 7      cowboy, or considered himself a cowboy, but when
 8      he shot Kevin Bright again what does he say?
 9  A.  Again, he talks about he says it was like in the
10      Westerns, I just pulled my back up and shot
11      Kevin again.
12  Q.  But in the Westerns they don't tie their victims
13      up first before they shoot them, do they?
14  A.  Not usually.
15  Q.  John Wayne didn't do that, did he?
16                MR. OSBURN:  Your Honor, I'm going to
17      object.
18                THE COURT:  I'll sustain.
19  Q.  Now, this is a crime scene photograph of Kevin
20      Bright as he was shot, right?
21  A.  That's correct.  That was taken at Wesley
22      Hospital and it indicates two gunshot injuries,
23      one above the right lip area there and then one
24      on the right side of his forehead.
25  Q.  Now, there were some teeth found in the room

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      that Kevin was tied up in; is that right?
 2  A.  Right, I believe two teeth were found on the
 3      floor.
 4  Q.  After taking care of Kevin, Rader said he went
 5      back to Kathryn again; is that right?
 6  A.  That's correct.
 7  Q.  And what did he say he did to her?
 8  A.  Well, he had her -- he'd already tied her to the
 9      chair at that point.
10  Q.  And this chair, is this chair in the photograph
11      here?
12  A.  Yes.  It's at the bottom right corner here of
13      the photo and you can barely see the chair.  And
14      right here where the pointer is was a nylon
15      stocking which was used to tie her wrists to the
16      chair.
17  Q.  And now this is another photograph that -- what
18      is this here now that you can see better in this
19      picture?
20  A.  This is the same bedroom.  Again, this shows the
21      chair and you can see the binding material
22      again, it's a nylon stocking which is on both
23      arms of the chair, which was used to tie her to
24      the chair.
25  Q.  Now, right here in the corner is the door frame;

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      is that right?
 2  A.  Right.  This would be the door frame right here.
 3      This picture also, what you just circled here,
 4      shows a blood swipe, apparently from the
 5      struggle.  And in the middle of the floor area
 6      was a large amount of blood where Kathryn bled
 7      inside of this bedroom.
 8  Q.  And then there's a telephone back there; is that
 9      correct?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  Now, did he say -- you say that she bled.  And
12      did he indicate to you whether or not he had to
13      struggle with Kathryn?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And how did he describe this struggle with
16      Kathryn Bright?
17  A.  She started to struggle and was able to actually
18      get loose from the chair and they began to
19      fight.  He said that he had to strike her around
20      the head area, trying to control her, and at the
21      same time he was trying to strangle her with a
22      piece of cloth that he had found inside the
23      residence.
24  Q.  There's a quote behind you, do you recall him
25      making this quote?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  How did he describe how Kathryn Bright fought?
 3  A.  She fought like a hell cat.
 4  Q.  And did he at some time during this fight, when
 5      she was fighting like a hell cat with him,
 6      trying to save her life, did he indicate to you
 7      at some time he knew he wasn't going to be able
 8      to do what he wanted to do to her?
 9  A.  Yes.  He was wanting to strangle her, that
10      wasn't working because she was fighting and
11      resisting, so at that point he said he pulled
12      out a knife that he had with him and he used
13      that to knife her with.
14  Q.  And he actually says to you, in the red here,
15      what does he say when he realizes he's losing
16      control of the fight?
17  A.  There was no way I was ever going to do what I
18      wanted to do and I had to put her down.
19  Q.  And those are his words?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  And he said he went ahead and drew knives; is
22      that correct?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And you're familiar with the case and what was
25      collected by law enforcement at the scene?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes.
 2                MR. O'CONNOR:  May I approach?
 3                THE COURT:  Yes.
 4  Q.  Now, I said that you were familiar with what law
 5      enforcement collected at the scene; is that
 6      correct?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  But you're also familiar with the items that
 9      were removed from Dennis Rader's stuff, from his
10      house, from his office and things like that?
11  A.  Yes.  I participated in all of those searches.
12  Q.  I'm going to hand you what I've marked as
13      State's Exhibit No. 16.  Do you know what
14      this -- this is a bag, right, with a sticker on
15      it and it says there's a buck knife and a sheath
16      in there; is that correct?
17  A.  That's correct.
18  Q.  This bag has been cut, why don't you go ahead
19      and reach in there and pull out what's in there.
20  A.  This is a sheath holding a buck knife that was
21      recovered in Mr. Rader's home.  This was
22      recovered in a closet there in his house.  And
23      this is one of the two knives that he indicated
24      to me that was used to stab Kathryn Bright.
25  Q.  So when he described how he stabbed Kathryn

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      Bright, he actually directed you to a place in
 2      his home where you could find the knife or the
 3      knives that he used?
 4  A.  That's correct.
 5  Q.  And he described this as a knife he used on
 6      Kathryn Bright?
 7  A.  Right.  He actually, during the interview, drew
 8      a picture of what the knife would look like for
 9      me.
10  Q.  And that picture, is it similar to that knife
11      that you have in front of you, State's Exhibit
12      16?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  You can go ahead and put that back.  Now,
15      State's Exhibit 17 is in a Ziploc bag.  Was this
16      also found in Dennis Rader's home?
17  A.  Yes, it was.
18  Q.  And what's the significance of State's Exhibit
19      17?
20  A.  State's Exhibit 17 was a -- another buck knife
21      that was found inside the living room area of
22      his home, inside of a bag, and this is a folding
23      buck knife.  And he indicated in the interview
24      that it was either one of these two knives that
25      he used to kill Kathryn Bright with.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  And so that was collected at the home because he
 2      directed that -- directed law enforcement to
 3      that, saying that might have been the one I used
 4      in Kathryn --
 5  A.  Correct.
 6  Q.  On Kathryn?
 7  A.  That's correct.
 8  Q.  But he does indicate, even in this quote here,
 9      that he had knives?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  And he had guns?
12  A.  Yes.
13                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, at this
14      time I'd move to admit State's Exhibit 16 and
15      17.
16                MR. OSBURN:  No objection, Your Honor.
17                THE COURT:  They will be admitted.
18  Q.  Now there's going to be some photographs here of
19      a autopsy that show the marks on Kathryn
20      Bright's neck and face.  This is a photograph
21      taken of the autopsy of Kathryn Bright; is that
22      correct, detective?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And here that I have here, what are these along
25      her neck?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Those are ligature marks on her neck.
 2  Q.  We also see around her ear?
 3  A.  Some bruising.
 4  Q.  And on her face?
 5  A.  Some more bruising.
 6  Q.  Okay.  And when he said he decided he had to
 7      take her -- or put her down, did he indicate to
 8      you what he did in order to put her down?
 9  A.  Yes.  He drew one of his knives and he talked
10      about how he stabbed her up under the ribs, in
11      the back area, he believed, and then at some
12      point he said that he spun her around and stuck
13      her in the front.  And he believed that he had
14      stabbed her two or three times.
15  Q.  He said he stabbed her two and three -- two or
16      three times; is that correct?
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  But they did an autopsy on Kathryn Bright; is
19      that correct?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  And some photographs are going to come up here
22      that show the stab wounds to Kathryn Bright.
23      Here on this side, here with the cursor, my
24      left, what do those wounds show?
25  A.  Those are some stab wounds on the lower back

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      area.
 2  Q.  Okay.  And at least from this photograph, one,
 3      two, three, four, possibly five; is that
 4      correct?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  All right.  And then this photograph here to the
 7      other side, to the right, you see more -- you
 8      see this is from the hospital; is that correct?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  And then there were other stab wounds here on
11      her front?
12  A.  That's correct.
13  Q.  Now, you talked about this a little bit so we'll
14      go through this pretty fast, but he said he
15      stabbed -- he said he stabbed her under the
16      ribs.  Did he indicate to you why he did that?
17  A.  Yeah.  He would read detective magazines and
18      other type of materials where -- describing how
19      other killers had killed people and that he
20      believed he read one time, in one of these
21      magazines or books, about how a killer used a
22      knife to kill someone and that you would use
23      upward thrusts under the ribs and that was the
24      best way to kill somebody.
25  Q.  So again, he had done his homework on how to

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      stab somebody?
 2  A.  Yes.
 3  Q.  Now, again, we have some autopsy photographs
 4      that depict 11 stab wounds to Kathy Bright?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  So when he told you he stabbed her, he thought
 7      three times, he was off a bit?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  And these are the photographs that show all of
10      the stab wounds to Kathryn Bright?
11  A.  Yes, I believe so.  There were actually seven
12      stab wounds on the lower back area and then four
13      on the abdomen of Kathryn Bright that they
14      discovered during the autopsy.
15  Q.  And these stab wounds, there was blood in the
16      house, there was blood where she was found and
17      blood in that bedroom, also?
18  A.  Yes, she bled profusely.
19  Q.  And maybe we should go back.  You said there was
20      blood in the bedroom behind the chair.  She
21      wasn't found in that bedroom, was she?
22  A.  No.
23  Q.  The officer found her outside of that bedroom?
24  A.  Just outside the bedroom, in the living room
25      area, which is just off of that bedroom area.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  And she was clutching what?
 2  A.  A phone.
 3  Q.  She was trying to call somebody, right?
 4  A.  Right.
 5  Q.  And again, she was in a big pool of blood there?
 6  A.  That's right.
 7  Q.  Now, did he -- did Rader tell you what he did
 8      after he shot this young boy and -- or young man
 9      and stabbed this young lady?
10  A.  Yes, he did.
11  Q.  And where did he go?
12  A.  Well, he said that he booked it and got out of
13      there and then that -- he talked about how he
14      went home and stashed his clothing, because they
15      were covered with blood, and how he eventually
16      cleaned up the knife that he used so that no
17      blood evidence could be found on that knife,
18      linking him to that crime.
19  Q.  Now, did he talk to you about how -- what
20      Kathryn was doing when she was stabbed and what
21      he thought about it while he was stabbing her?
22  A.  Yeah.  He said that she was moaning and groaning
23      and he talked about how much she was bleeding
24      and how he got blood over his hands, his shoes,
25      his clothing.  He talked about how that he

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      didn't realize how slick human blood was.
 2  Q.  And did he describe it as boy, he got blood on
 3      his pants and his shoes and stuff like that, he
 4      described it as being a mess?
 5  A.  Yeah, it was a mess.
 6  Q.  And did he tell you what he did or what he
 7      thought about his shoes in relation to Kathryn
 8      bleeding all over them?
 9  A.  Yes.  He said he had blood on his shoes and he
10      was concerned that he might have left footprints
11      at the crime scene.
12  Q.  And how with blood on the shoes he'd have to get
13      rid of his suede shoes; is that right?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And did he?
16  A.  Yes, he did.
17  Q.  And there's a quote here, he burned them?
18  A.  That's correct.  He first stashed them at his
19      parents' house, he said, in the chicken house,
20      chicken coop.  Later on he had to burn those
21      items because of the blood that was all over
22      them.
23  Q.  Now, at this time, when he's stabbing Kathryn
24      what turns out to be 11 times, is he -- is his
25      attention then drawn to Kevin again?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes.  He said that he heard a door open.  At
 2      that point he thought that perhaps the police
 3      had been called and were there and that at that
 4      point he thought that the police were just going
 5      to shoot him and kill him right there on the
 6      spot.
 7  Q.  And what did he decide he had to do?  What did
 8      he tell you he had to do?
 9  A.  That's when he said he was booking it and he
10      decided he had to get out of there, because he
11      realized that Kevin had actually gotten up and
12      ran out the door.  He saw Kevin running down the
13      street.
14  Q.  And did he tell you what -- that he was somewhat
15      disappointed how this murder turned out?
16  A.  Yes.  He indicated that shooting or stabbing
17      someone is not what he called his forte.  And so
18      he was disappointed that this one had spiraled
19      out of control and he hadn't abled -- wasn't
20      able to completely do what he wanted to do
21      there.
22  Q.  And what he would later describe to you and
23      describe to all the other law enforcement
24      officers that his forte, as he says, was
25      strangling people and watching them suffer?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  That's correct.  He indicated that that was his
 2      plan all along with Kathryn, was to tie her to
 3      the bed and strangle or suffocate her.
 4  Q.  And this is a quote specifically about that; is
 5      that correct, all of his murders were what?
 6  A.  Sexual.  He called it sexual overt.  He said
 7      that basically all of these people were going to
 8      die one of three ways; first, they were going to
 9      be bound, then they would either be strangled,
10      suffocated or hung.
11  Q.  And that the only reason he knifed Kathryn was
12      because he lost control of the situation?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  Now, this -- we've talked about it a little bit,
15      this is where -- this is a crime scene
16      photograph of where Kathy Bright was found
17      laying, right?
18  A.  Yes.  This depicts where she was found inside
19      the living room area.
20  Q.  And that is the telephone that she had in her
21      hand; is that right?
22  A.  That's correct.
23  Q.  Okay.  It's been hung back up?
24  A.  Right.
25  Q.  And then this is the area here where she was

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      found laying, you can see a towel and some blood
 2      on the ground?
 3  A.  Right.  That's where she was found, laying face
 4      down, by Officer Landon, clutching the phone.
 5  Q.  Now, did Rader tell you what would have happened
 6      if -- he made a mistake by not bringing his
 7      stuff in here, did he tell you what would have
 8      happened if he would have brought his rope
 9      quality?
10  A.  Right.  He said that because of the binding
11      material that he used he wasn't able to control
12      them like he had planned.  He said that if he
13      had bought his -- or brought his better ropes
14      with him that he would have been able to control
15      them and that both of them would have died,
16      instead of just Kathryn.
17  Q.  And again, here's some strangulation marks on
18      Kathy Bright, an autopsy photograph, the eyes
19      have been blocked out, but this shows the front
20      view of the strangulation marks and it also
21      shows the bruising on her face; is that correct?
22  A.  Yes.
23  Q.  Which indicates she was in a struggle?
24  A.  Yes.  And he did indicate that he struck her
25      during that struggle.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Now, did he tell you that he had -- his plans
 2      further?  Did he describe what his plans were
 3      for Kathy Bright?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  And he even actually had a fantasy that he had
 6      drawn out in his -- he called his mother lode?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  And was that collected?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  This was in what he called the mother lode, he
11      had actually cut out the newspaper photograph of
12      Kathy Bright that appeared in the newspaper
13      after she was murdered?
14  A.  That's correct.
15  Q.  And he had this clipping in his stuff?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  In his mother lode, as he calls it?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And he also had what?
20  A.  He had a document that he called An April Death,
21      that he said that he had written shortly after
22      this crime occurred.  He, in this document,
23      describes the murder of Kathryn Bright, the
24      shooting of Kevin Bright and talks about some of
25      his fantasy that he had in reference to what he

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      wanted to do with Kathryn.
 2  Q.  And this is seven pages typed out, just like
 3      this; is that correct?
 4  A.  Yes.  That's actually the first page of the
 5      document and it's titled An April Death.
 6  Q.  And this is -- reading this document, it is
 7      clear in reading it that the person writing it
 8      is extremely proud of what he has done; would
 9      that be fair to say?
10  A.  I think that's a fair statement.
11  Q.  Now, he also had time lines, in his mother lode
12      or in his stuff, about the murders; is that
13      correct?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  So he could keep track of them?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  And here what do we see?
18  A.  This was in a notebook that he had, he would
19      keep the years and the dates.  And you can see
20      January '74, and then down here, four would be
21      April of '74.  And then off to the right he has
22      PJ Lite (sic) Out, which refers to K B, Kathryn
23      Bright.  And again, that was his project or PJ
24      name for her, was either Project Lights Out or
25      Project Lite Out.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Now, we've heard about Dennis Rader's afterlife
 2      concept for the victims, that he spent life
 3      contemplating.  Did he have a plan for Kathy
 4      Bright in the afterlife?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  And what was that going to be?
 7  A.  His plan for Kathryn was to be a sex bondage
 8      girl.
 9                MR. O'CONNOR:  I don't have any other
10      questions.  Thank you, detective.
11                THE COURT:  Any cross?
12                MR. OSBURN:  No, Your Honor.
13                THE COURT:  All right.  May this
14      witness be excused?
15                MR. O'CONNOR:  Yes, Your Honor.
16                THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You're
17      excused.  You may call your next witness.
18                MS. PARKER:  The State will call Dana
19      Gouge.
21                     DANA GOUGE,
22      called as a witness, having been first duly
23      sworn, testified as follows:
24                  DIRECT EXAMINATION

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Would you please tell us your name?
 2  A.  Dana Gouge.
 3  Q.  And you are a detective now with the Wichita
 4      Police Department; is that correct?
 5  A.  That's correct.
 6  Q.  And when did you join the police department?
 7  A.  In February of 1987.
 8  Q.  And how long have you been a detective?
 9  A.  For about 11 years.
10  Q.  Your primary assignment is the investigation of
11      homicide cases; is that correct?
12  A.  That's correct.  I'm assigned to the homicide
13      section.
14  Q.  And how long have you worked homicides?
15  A.  10 years.
16  Q.  More recently, of course, you were assigned to
17      what is called or has been called, in our
18      community, the BTK task force; is that correct?
19  A.  Yes.
20  Q.  And when were you assigned to that task force?
21  A.  In March of '04.
22  Q.  All right.  As part of that assignment, I think
23      the general idea has been expressed here,
24      each -- an individual detective or a couple of
25      detectives, at least with the Otero murder, were

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      assigned to be responsible for an individual
 2      case; is that correct?
 3  A.  Yes, it is.
 4  Q.  And what case were you assigned responsibility
 5      for?
 6  A.  I was assigned to the Shirley Vian murder.
 7  Q.  And in that endeavor, in trying to look at that
 8      case, did you review the case files and the case
 9      evidence that were originally collected and
10      maintained that documented the Vian murder?
11  A.  Yes, ma'am.
12  Q.  What day did that murder occur?
13  A.  March 17th, 1977.
14  Q.  On the screen behind you we have a picture of
15      Ms. Vian, Shirley Relford Vian.  She was 26
16      years of age at that time; is that correct?
17  A.  Yes, it is.
18  Q.  And where did she live?
19  A.  1311 South Hydraulic, here in Wichita.
20  Q.  And did she live there alone?
21  A.  No.  She lived there with Richard Vian and
22      their -- and she had three children from a
23      previous relationship.
24  Q.  All right.  Now, in the course of your
25      investigation and reviewing the matter, at one

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      point Mr. Rader, or Dennis Rader, was arrested
 2      for the murder of Shirley Vian; is that correct?
 3  A.  Yes, it is.
 4  Q.  And did you have an occasion, as part of your
 5      assignment, to personally interview him about
 6      her murder?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  All right.  And as a result of that, did you
 9      attempt to learn from him how it is that he came
10      to focus on Shirley Vian?
11  A.  Yes.
12  Q.  There's a screen behind you that is -- do you
13      recognize that to be a quote from the interview
14      with Dennis Rader?
15  A.  Yes, it is.
16  Q.  What did he describe to you about how he
17      selected her?
18  A.  He was familiar with the neighborhood where she
19      resided and that was because he had been
20      stalking in that neighborhood before.  He
21      thought it was a good neighborhood for a hit
22      because there was an alley that ran through that
23      area that was not well-lit and he described it
24      as a good place for a person like him to hang
25      out.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Now, when this case was originally investigated
 2      one of the children was interviewed, by the name
 3      of Steven; is that correct?
 4  A.  That's correct.
 5  Q.  And he had indicated, actually indicated that
 6      when a man had approached him that he had seen
 7      the man go to another house; is that correct?
 8  A.  That is correct.
 9  Q.  All right.  When you talked to Rader, did he
10      explain to you a little bit about this stalking
11      in that neighborhood and describe anything
12      similar to what Steven had pointed out?
13  A.  Yes.  He specifically said that he had gone to
14      another residence, was planning to do a hit
15      there, had knocked on the door but didn't get an
16      answer.
17  Q.  And so changed --
18  A.  And that's when he saw Steven walking down the
19      street and that's when he approached him.
20  Q.  Thank you.  The children that were in the home,
21      the oldest boy is on the screen behind you; is
22      that correct?  And he was eight at the time?
23  A.  Yes, ma'am.
24  Q.  And his name -- formal name was Junior Relford,
25      but he went by Bud?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  That's right.
 2  Q.  And then another picture showing the second
 3      child, Steven; is that correct?
 4  A.  Yes, it is.
 5  Q.  And Steven's here today with us?
 6  A.  Yes, he is.
 7  Q.  And how old was Steven at the time?
 8  A.  Six.
 9  Q.  And her third child was a small girl?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  All right.  And her name is Stephanie and she
12      was four at the time?
13  A.  That's right.
14  Q.  And these three pictures of Ms. Vian's children
15      were in her personal effects or in her purse and
16      collected originally by the Wichita Police
17      Department when they were -- went to the crime
18      scene; is that correct?
19  A.  Yes, it is.
20  Q.  The screen behind you describes, in Rader's
21      words, how he saw this kid.  And what does he
22      tell you he did with the child?
23  A.  When he saw Steven walking down the street he
24      approached him, showed him a photograph of a
25      woman and a child.  He realized that Steven was

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      home with his mother at 1311 South Hydraulic at
 2      that time.
 3  Q.  All right.  And so he had changed, as we said
 4      before, his approach.  Did you ask him about
 5      this photograph?
 6  A.  Yes, I did.
 7  Q.  And what did he tell you?
 8  A.  I asked him what photograph he showed Steven.
 9      He told me that it was actually a photograph of
10      his own wife and his own son.
11  Q.  You're saying that Rader explained to you that
12      the photograph that he showed to this young boy
13      was his -- Rader's wife and son?
14  A.  That's correct.
15  Q.  Why did he use this?
16  A.  He used it as a ruse.  He planned on pretending
17      that he was a detective in order to gain the
18      confidence and entry into the residence where he
19      was going to do the hit.
20  Q.  The screen behind you is now reflecting the
21      address of 1311 South Hydraulic, Wichita,
22      Kansas?
23  A.  Yes, it is.
24  Q.  And that would be the side of the house that
25      faces the street --

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes, ma'am.
 2  Q.  -- that we are looking at right now?  So would
 3      the sidewalk that he approached Steven on be
 4      running in front of that house?
 5  A.  Yes, it would be.
 6  Q.  And that was taken at the time that she was
 7      murdered?
 8  A.  Right.
 9  Q.  This photo?  Now, you had indicated that he was
10      playing the detective ruse.  In addition, as the
11      screen say -- screen shows, he showed him a
12      card, he told him he was a detective; is that
13      correct?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And did he show him -- show them a weapon?
16  A.  Yes.  He said that after he'd gone to the front
17      door, he knocked on the door and it was opened,
18      he showed them a card, showed them his gun and
19      said that he was a detective.
20  Q.  Did he further describe to you his appearance as
21      a detective?
22  A.  Yeah.  He said he was pretty spiffy looking.
23      That he was wearing dark slacks and a James Bond
24      style tweed coat.
25  Q.  In earlier testimony, Detective Snyder's

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      testimony, he describes himself like John Wayne.
 2      And to you he described himself like James Bond?
 3  A.  A James Bond style coat.
 4  Q.  All right.  In other parts of the interview did
 5      he refer to himself as being like a spy?
 6  A.  Yes, he did.  On a number of different occasions
 7      he referred to what he did as being like a spy.
 8  Q.  Did he describe, once he'd gone in, how he --
 9      how he was able to try to manage the situation?
10  A.  He said with a gun he was able to gain easy
11      control, but he wanted to ease them, as long as
12      they remain calm it would be easier for him to
13      do what he wanted.  So he told them that he
14      was -- well, he told Shirley that he was going
15      to tie her up, maybe have sex with her and take
16      some photographs of her and it wouldn't be a
17      pleasant thing, but you know, they would
18      survive.
19  Q.  All right.  And the screen behind you there is a
20      portion of it highlighted in red, is this a
21      quote that was expressed to you during the
22      interview?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And essentially it describes that he wanted them
25      to think he wasn't that bad of a guy until he

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      got control?
 2  A.  Right.
 3  Q.  Did he also -- we have heard in the other
 4      presentations that he recalls things that the
 5      individual victims would say to him while he
 6      was -- he was murdering them.  And did he
 7      describe some statements that Shirley Vian said
 8      to him?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  And what did he tell you?
11  A.  He had told her that he was going to tie the
12      children up.  She asked him not to do that.  So
13      he said that he had to do that and when he went
14      ahead and began to tie the eight year old up,
15      the eight year old began to cry.  He decided
16      that that wasn't going to work so he had changed
17      his strategy on how he was going to control the
18      children at that point and he decided to put
19      them in the bathroom.
20  Q.  All right.  In addition to that, he also
21      expressed to Ms. Vian what he was going to do
22      with her; is that correct, and had a
23      conversation with her?
24  A.  Yes.  And that was part of easing her, trying to
25      keep her calm, make her feel as though she would

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      survive this as long as she cooperated, but that
 2      wasn't his intent.
 3  Q.  Did he indicate he might take some pictures of
 4      her?
 5  A.  Yes, he did.
 6  Q.  Or at least he said he told her that?
 7  A.  Right.
 8  Q.  Ultimately, through the investigation of this
 9      case and then the follow-up and after the
10      interviews with Rader and the search of the
11      various places that he had access to, did you
12      ever locate any pictures that were taken of her
13      by Rader?
14  A.  No, we did not.
15  Q.  Now, when he was telling her this he also
16      relates to you some comments she made, you know,
17      trying to discourage him; is that correct?
18  A.  Right.
19  Q.  And what did she say?
20  A.  She said that she was very sick.  And he also
21      told us in his description that the family was
22      sick and he thought they possibly had the
23      measles.  She told him that she was sick and she
24      actually threw up during this incident.
25  Q.  Now, when this -- this scene was initially

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      looked at by crime investigators, it was
 2      apparent from her own body and also from areas
 3      in the home that she was, in fact, ill?
 4  A.  Right.  They located vomit on her body and also
 5      on the floor.
 6  Q.  And then in addition to that, this would have
 7      been a normal school day, at least for Bud and
 8      Steven, and they were home, as well?
 9  A.  Right.
10  Q.  He described to you what he then did with
11      Ms. Vian; is that correct?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  And what did he do?
14  A.  He said that he put her on the bed, taped her
15      feet and bound her ankles to the -- to the bed
16      post and tied her up.
17  Q.  And he did this because he was afraid she might
18      escape before he was able to complete the full
19      extent of his fantasies?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  There's a crime scene photograph on the screen
22      behind you.  What is depicted there?
23  A.  That's the bed where the assault took place, as
24      far as her being tied up and murdered.
25  Q.  Now, when police first responded, they responded

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      because the children had escaped; is that
 2      correct?
 3  A.  Yes.
 4  Q.  And were able to run to the neighbors?
 5  A.  That's right.
 6  Q.  When police got there where was Shirley Vian?
 7  A.  She was still on that bed.
 8  Q.  Can you describe for us how she was located --
 9      laying on that bed?
10  A.  She was laying on -- I believe on her back on
11      that bed.  The bed, you can see, is pushed up
12      against the door and that doorway actually leads
13      to the bathroom.  She -- her ankles were tied.
14  Q.  This is the door that leads to the bathroom?
15  A.  Yes.  Her ankles were tied to the bed post,
16      which would be the head of the bed, and her head
17      was toward the foot of the bed.
18  Q.  Now, the bathroom door, behind that door is
19      where the children were?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  I'm going to show a photograph that depicts the
22      bindings to just the legs of Shirley Vian there
23      at the home when police found her.  Does that
24      picture accurately show, as you know or kept in
25      police evidence, to reflect how she was bound?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  All right.  And we see in that picture it
 3      appears to be some type of a black substance,
 4      what is that?
 5  A.  That's black electrical tape.
 6  Q.  And then the white cord is cord?
 7  A.  Right, it's like a rope.
 8  Q.  Now, the children, being in the bathroom, did he
 9      describe whether or not they remained quiet and
10      calm?
11  A.  Yes, he did.  They did not remain quiet and
12      calm, they were yelling, screaming, asking him
13      to -- at one point the children were able to
14      force the door partially open and see what he
15      was doing to their mother.  The children were
16      screaming at him to leave their mother alone and
17      saying that they were going to escape.
18  Q.  And he describes that one of the things he did
19      to calm them down was what?
20  A.  He put some toys and a blanket in the bathroom
21      with them.
22  Q.  So while he's killing their mother, he throws
23      some toys in for them?
24  A.  Yes, ma'am.
25  Q.  Were those toys collected by the police?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes, they were.
 2  Q.  I'm going to hand you an exhibit, there's a red
 3      sticker there, State's Exhibit 18.  Do you see
 4      that?
 5  A.  Yes, I do.
 6  Q.  And you know -- you've had an opportunity to see
 7      this before we walked in here?
 8  A.  Yes, ma'am.
 9  Q.  You know what's in this bag?
10  A.  Yes, I do.
11  Q.  What's in this bag?
12  A.  There are three toy items in the bag, an
13      airplane, a fire truck and another vehicle.
14  Q.  All right.  Would you pull them out for us and
15      set them up here.
16  A.  (The witness complies with request.)
17  Q.  Thank you.  Now, these are the toys that the
18      kids were provided by Rader?
19  A.  That's right.
20  Q.  And they have a substance on them?
21  A.  Yes.  That's fingerprint powder that was used in
22      1977 to try to bring up any latent fingerprints.
23  Q.  Because the children were all interviewed to try
24      to find out what happened; is that right?
25  A.  Yes.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  And then so you all -- police discovered that
 2      they were tied in this bathroom and that these
 3      toys were given to them by the killer of their
 4      mother?
 5  A.  That's right.
 6  Q.  All right.  So possibly they might turn up a
 7      fingerprint?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  Was the fingerprinting successful?
10  A.  No.
11                MS. PARKER:  State would move for the
12      admission of State's Exhibit 18.
13                THE COURT:  Any objection?
14                MR. OSBURN:  No objection.
15                THE COURT:  All right.  Exhibit 18
16      will be admitted.
17                MS. PARKER:  Thank you.
18  Q.  Now, we talked just a moment about some of the
19      things that he had said to them, but does this
20      picture behind you reflect a crime scene
21      photograph that was taken of the time -- at the
22      time, of the bathroom that the three children
23      were put in and the blankets and the toys you
24      can see on the floor and the cord; is that
25      right?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Yes, ma'am.
 2  Q.  If you'll take just a minute and look at this
 3      screen, this is a text screen quoting part of
 4      Rader's statement to you; is that correct?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  And what does it tell us here?
 7  A.  Basically Rader told them to stay in the
 8      bathroom.  One of the children said that they
 9      were going to break out.  And Rader replied to
10      them I don't think you want to -- you want to,
11      I'll shoot you, blow your head off.  And he also
12      said that this upset the children.
13  Q.  Did that seem to surprise him, that it would
14      upset them?
15  A.  No.  I mean, he was very matter of fact about
16      the entire incident, conversation.
17  Q.  So one of these -- did he indicate which one it
18      was that may have said that to him?  One of the
19      boys?
20  A.  Yes, one of the boys.  When he was talking about
21      the boys trying to get out of the bathroom he
22      believed that one of the boys actually was
23      watching him and he believed that that was the
24      oldest boy.
25  Q.  Let's talk about that for just a minute.  When

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      these children were interviewed and Steven --
 2      Steven Relford, at six years old, he gave -- he
 3      interviewed with several officers; is that
 4      correct?
 5  A.  Yes, he did.  Several officers and detectives
 6      interviewed Steven over the years.
 7  Q.  And he described everything that had happened;
 8      is that correct?
 9  A.  Yes, he did.
10  Q.  He even described the bag that was carried in by
11      the man?
12  A.  Yes, he did.
13  Q.  And a physical description of this man?
14  A.  Yes, he did.
15  Q.  And he indicated that he could see what was
16      happening?
17  A.  Yes, he did.
18  Q.  And overall, after you've looked at that and now
19      you look at Rader and you know what he appeared
20      like from other photographs at a younger age,
21      was Steven close in his description and fairly
22      accurate in describing the event, as you know
23      them now?
24  A.  Yes.  You know, knowing what was reported at the
25      time to the police, what the physical evidence

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      showed and what Mr. Rader told us during the
 2      interviews, what Steven reported to the police
 3      in 1977 was very accurate.
 4  Q.  Thank you.  This next screen also describes how
 5      they were banging on the door and that he --
 6      Rader tells you he could see one of the boys
 7      looking out?
 8  A.  That's right.
 9  Q.  And what did he tell you one of the boys was
10      saying when he saw him looking out?
11  A.  To leave his mother alone.
12  Q.  And asked him to get out of there?
13  A.  Right.
14  Q.  Did Rader recognize that the child was trying to
15      get out of that bathroom?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  And he told you, but he'd already done it to
18      her; is that right?
19  A.  Yes.
20  Q.  And what did that mean?
21  A.  Well, I asked him what that mean -- meant.  And
22      he said that he'd already strangled her.
23  Q.  A couple of crime scene photographs behind you,
24      one is an interior picture, one is an exterior
25      picture of the Vian house.  Do you recognize

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      what's in the picture on the left?
 2  A.  On the left is a picture from the inside of the
 3      residence of the bathroom window.  The picture
 4      on the right is a photograph of that same window
 5      from the outside of the residence.
 6  Q.  And why is that significant?
 7  A.  Because according to the interviews that were
 8      done in 1977 of the children, Bud broke out that
 9      window and was able to escape and go to a
10      neighbor's house for help.
11  Q.  Now, when Rader is describing these various
12      murders and in particular, the murder of Shirley
13      Vian, he seems to focus on colors; is that
14      correct?
15  A.  He has a good memory of what things look like.
16  Q.  And so he was trying to describe what she had
17      on.  And as you'd said before, that he noticed
18      that she was sick and he indicated that he'd
19      gotten her some water?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  But right after that, at the end of this
22      statement what does he tell you after -- what he
23      did after he got her some water?
24  A.  He came back and finished.
25  Q.  And what does I finished mean?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  That means that he killed her.  He strangled her
 2      by tying the rope tightly around her neck, put a
 3      plastic bag over her head and also an item of
 4      clothing.
 5  Q.  I'm going to show you just briefly a graphic
 6      photograph, not for viewing by all, of the face
 7      and neck of Shirley Vian.  In this photograph,
 8      detective, we can see strangulation markings?
 9  A.  Those are ligature marks.
10  Q.  Ligature markings, I'm sorry.  And then we also
11      see what's been discussed that she was in fact
12      sick and that would be vomit?
13  A.  Yes, it is.
14  Q.  Thank you.  The sexual part of this killing for
15      him included him removing her clothing; is that
16      correct?
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  He described to you in detail how he taped her
19      hands?
20  A.  Yes, he did.
21  Q.  What did he say about that?
22  A.  He said that the manner in which he taped her
23      hands was a big deal in the bondage world, it
24      was really high stuff, as he described it.
25      Basically he demonstrated how the arms would

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      cross over each other in the back, stood up from
 2      the table we were sitting at, turned around,
 3      showed me what he was talking about.
 4  Q.  Can you do that for us, show us what you saw
 5      Rader do to describe this good, high stuff?
 6  A.  Well, he had his hands behind his back but he
 7      was -- crossed his arms like this.  And I'm not
 8      sure I'm flexible enough in this suit to go
 9      ahead and do that.
10  Q.  So he stood up and put his hands behind his
11      back?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  Just to show you how good he is?
14  A.  Right.  And how that's really important in the
15      bondage world.
16  Q.  I'm going to show another graphic photograph, it
17      depicts those bindings of her hands.  Do you
18      recognize this photograph now on the screen as a
19      depiction of the bindings that were -- a picture
20      taken at the time that they found her body in
21      that home?
22  A.  Yes.
23  Q.  And it shows the bindings to be, it appears, the
24      black electrical tape, cord and then what is the
25      additional item?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  I believe that's pantyhose.
 2  Q.  Thank you.  Again, we have behind you on the
 3      screen another description of how he strangled
 4      her.  But he indicates he didn't spend a lot of
 5      time at that; is that right?
 6  A.  That's right.
 7  Q.  How did he do it and why was it so quickly?
 8  A.  Well, one of the children had told him that
 9      someone was supposed to be coming over.  Plus,
10      the -- all the noise they were making, the
11      problems he was having controlling them, he was
12      afraid that, you know, he was running out of
13      time.  Also, yeah, I forgot that the phone had
14      rang, that -- if the phone wasn't answered he
15      didn't know what would happen, whether people
16      would come right over, whether it was going to
17      be someone calling that had to drive from across
18      town or just walk across the street, he wasn't
19      sure.  So he knew that time was running short
20      and he had to get out of there quick.
21  Q.  That's another thing that Steven Relford had
22      told the police about that phone ringing, too,
23      wasn't it?
24  A.  Yes.
25  Q.  He described taking her clothing off and the

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      plastic bag and the rope that he used to
 2      strangle her.  Those items are depicted in this
 3      photograph and were still on the bed when the
 4      police arrived?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  Were any of these items -- did they have to be
 7      removed from her body or were they just laying
 8      there?
 9  A.  No, they had to be removed from her body.  When
10      the police arrived she was still on the bed.
11      In order to attempt lifesaving techniques she
12      was actually unbound, removed from the bed and
13      carried into the living room, where EMS tried to
14      do CPR but was unsuccessful.
15  Q.  Thank you.  In describing this did he tell you
16      his feelings about what was going on?
17  A.  He said he was excited, it was a exciting thing
18      for him, sexually exciting.  He said that he
19      wasn't able to really complete the acts that he
20      had intended because of the losing the control
21      of the situation, the phone ringing.
22  Q.  And that was upsetting to him?  In fact, he used
23      a profanity when he was describing it to you?
24  A.  He said that he didn't go full bore like he did
25      on the Oteros and he didn't have time to do it

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      and he said Christ.
 2  Q.  When you had already mentioned what is depicted
 3      in this next screen about the phone ringing and
 4      wanting to get out of there, what did he -- did
 5      he tell you what his plans would have been if
 6      the phone had not rang and --
 7  A.  Well, he told me that the kids were lucky, that
 8      he had planned on doing to them like he did the
 9      Oteros and that he probably would have hung the
10      four year old girl.
11  Q.  The four year old?
12  A.  Right, like he did Josephine.
13  Q.  Because he was trying to repeat what he had done
14      in the Otero murders?
15  A.  Well, because that's what he would have liked to
16      have done, is what he had said.
17  Q.  So did he describe whether he was able to
18      obtain, as he indicated before in his interview,
19      a sexual release?
20  A.  He wasn't sure whether or not he had actually
21      ejaculated at this scene.  He couldn't remember.
22      In fact, he said he may have done it in his
23      pants, he may have grabbed something and wiped
24      himself off with before he left, but he couldn't
25      recall for sure whether or not he had actually

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      ejaculated in that scene through masturbation.
 2      He said he did not have sex with Shirley Vian.
 3  Q.  Did he indicate whether or not he took any items
 4      from that scene?
 5  A.  He took some money orders and he also took a
 6      couple of pairs of her underpants.
 7  Q.  And what was the purpose of taking the
 8      underpants of this woman he had just killed?
 9  A.  I imagine it's just for his own pleasure.
10  Q.  In the course of this investigation and
11      collection of information about him, was it
12      learned that this is something that he would
13      stimulate himself with at other times, the
14      apparel of females that he had taken?
15  A.  Yes, or dress in the victim's clothing.
16  Q.  I'm going to show another photograph of the
17      ligature marks to the neck of Shirley Vian and
18      those can be seen or are demonstrated in this
19      photograph?
20  A.  Yes, ma'am.
21  Q.  And this screen describes what you've already
22      talked about as how he probably would have hung
23      the little girl?
24  A.  Yes.
25  Q.  There's a statement at the very end of that

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      where he is describing his character, in his --
 2      in his own words.  How does he describe himself?
 3  A.  He says he can be pretty mean.  And reading from
 4      the screen, but on the other hand, I'm very --
 5      you know, I'm a nice guy.  I'm a nice guy.
 6  Q.  After describing these murders to you and
 7      telling you about this, he was telling you that
 8      he was a nice guy?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  The children escaped and he leaves and what's he
11      do?
12  A.  He went and disposed of the evidence at a
13      unknown location and went back to his normal
14      life.
15  Q.  And what was his normal life at that time?
16  A.  He was a husband and a father.
17  Q.  And was he in school at that time?
18  A.  Yes.  I think -- he wasn't sure as far as where
19      he was working at that particular time.  We had
20      quite a lengthy discussion about why he was free
21      on that particular day, but I think he was going
22      to school then.
23  Q.  There was some discussion about whether or not
24      he was possibly on spring break or something; is
25      that right?

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  A.  Right.
 2  Q.  Which would be consistent with the day that
 3      Shirley Vian was murdered?
 4  A.  Yeah.
 5  Q.  Would be about spring break time?
 6  A.  Yes.
 7  Q.  As our community knows and the Court is aware
 8      of, we began receiving communications from
 9      Rader, known to the community only at that time
10      as BTK, but there was a communication sent
11      regarding Shirley Vian's murder, or mentioning
12      it, January 31st of 1978; is that correct?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  It was sent to the Eagle-Beacon, which is the
15      local -- the name of the local paper at that
16      time?
17  A.  That's correct.
18  Q.  And on the screen behind you, is that a copy of
19      the first page of that document?
20  A.  Yes, it is.
21  Q.  And can you just generally describe what's
22      contained there?
23  A.  Basically he's inquiring as to why a poem that
24      he had previously sent to the newspaper wasn't
25      published.  And the poem was about Shirley Vian.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      He kind of blames the police chief for trying to
 2      keep this quiet and wants to know how many
 3      people he has to kill before he gets his name in
 4      the paper.
 5  Q.  So he was indicating, in 1978, how bad he wanted
 6      to be recognized for his deeds?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  And this is the second page, which he signs as
 9      BTK?
10  A.  That's right.
11  Q.  And at the top, I don't know if the audience or
12      the Court can see that, but it says number five?
13  A.  You guess the motive and victim.
14  Q.  So essentially had he described some of the
15      murders that he'd committed, that he knew had
16      been discovered and thought that the police were
17      attributing to him, but they had not determined
18      one of those?
19  A.  That's right.  And then that was referring to
20      the Bright murder.
21  Q.  The Kathy Bright murder.  So the poem, once this
22      was sent, then was there attempts to locate the
23      poem?
24  A.  Right.  The police went back to the Eagle and
25      they were able to find this in the dead letter

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      file and it's the Shirley Locks poem.
 2  Q.  So in the interviews with him does Rader admit
 3      that these are his -- his poems?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  This is his poem that he wrote about the death
 6      of Shirley Vian?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  And do you have any idea how this poem was
 9      formulated by him?
10  A.  No, I don't.
11  Q.  Does it mirror any other known poems, some
12      reference to a curly locks poem?
13  A.  Oh, I've heard that.
14  Q.  Is it described as that?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  Thank you.  And what does that poem show?
17  A.  It says Shirley locks, Shirley locks, wilt thou
18      be mine.  Thou shalt not scream, not yet, fee
19      the line.  I can't -- I can't read the rest of
20      it, it's unreadable.
21  Q.  Thank you.  And he does sign it again with
22      this --
23  A.  BTK.
24  Q.  -- BTK.  A couple of screens here of materials
25      found in the Shirley Vian case, this is a quote,

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1      what is that quote from?
 2  A.  That's a quote taken from that letter that you
 3      had previously had up there.
 4  Q.  And what does that say?
 5  A.  Seven down and many more to go.
 6  Q.  And what did -- what was that supposed to mean?
 7  A.  That there were seven victims, he had included a
 8      description of the Nancy Fox murder in that
 9      letter and was claiming that at that time, that
10      totalled seven victims and he was warning us
11      that there were many more to come.
12  Q.  In addition to the poem he wrote and the
13      communication he sent, once he was arrested,
14      going through his items another story was found
15      which he titled Ode to Rader's -- or Ode to
16      Shirley; is that correct?
17  A.  Yes, it is.
18  Q.  And in that how does he refer to Shirley Vian?
19  A.  As PJ Waterfall.
20  Q.  PJ Waterfall.  Do you know why he selected
21      waterfall for her?
22  A.  Because she lived on Hydraulic Street.
23  Q.  The screen behind you, is that the first page of
24      that two-page description?
25  A.  Yes, ma'am.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1  Q.  Which he calls Ode to Shirley?
 2  A.  Yes.
 3  Q.  Now, in his interview with you does he describe
 4      when he was working on this?
 5  A.  He was planning on sending -- this would be his
 6      next package delivery to the media or to the
 7      police, describing the murder of Shirley Vian.
 8      We caught him before he could deliver that,
 9      though.
10  Q.  Did he indicate in his discussions with law
11      enforcement that he was actually working on this
12      Ode to Shirley the night before he was arrested?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  We have now heard about Rader's afterlife
15      concept for the victim, did he also have one for
16      Shirley Vian?
17  A.  Yes, he did.
18  Q.  And what was that?
19  A.  That Shirley would be his house servant.
20  Q.  In the afterlife?
21  A.  In the afterlife.
22                MS. PARKER:  Thank you.  I have no
23      other questions of this witness.
24                THE COURT:  All right.  Any cross?
25                MR. OSBURN:  No, Your Honor.

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1                THE COURT:  All right.  May this
 2      witness be excused?
 3                MS. PARKER:  Yes, Your Honor.
 4                THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You're
 5      excused.  We'll take a recess until 1:00 this
 6      afternoon.
 7                     (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken
 8                     for the noon hour, after which
 9                     the following proceedings were
10                     had:)
12                   END OF VOLUME II

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.

 1                 C E R T I F I C A T E
 4        I, Carri L. Miles, a Certified Shorthand
 5 Reporter and a regularly appointed, qualified and
 6 acting official reporter of the Eighteenth Judicial
 7 District of the State of Kansas, hereby certify that as
 8 such Official Reporter I was present at and reported
 9 in Stenotype shorthand the above and foregoing
10 proceedings in State of Kansas vs. Dennis L. Rader,
11 Defendant, heard on August 17, 2005, before the
12 Honorable Gregory L. Waller, Judge of Division No. 5 of
13 said Court.
14        That thereafter, upon the request of Mr. Tim
15 Rogers, I personally prepared the foregoing transcript
16 by means of computer-aided transcription and that said
17 transcript is a true and correct record of the
18 proceedings taken by me in the Sentencing Hearing
19 to the best of my knowledge and ability.
21 this _____ day of _____________, 2005.
23                          ____________________________
                   CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
24                          Official Court Reporter

          CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.