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Weekend_Vox_Session : davidflame
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davidflame: spooky place in the pic with the lighting forks
davidflame: welcome through ;)
14.32.45 mojobug: Photo billboard Study http://65.32.1.161/imbadbug/castlerock.jpg
14.33.28 lewis: ty
14.33.39 AceHarddrive: okay, all the important people are here!
14.34.01 lewis: -.-
davidflame: ;)
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davidflame: I'll usher the rest through
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davidflame: k just Ken to come through now
davidflame: and here he is tada
14.36.15 Artistken: thanks for waiting
davidflame: K heres some files you can choose some billboards from
davidflame: http://www.avidflame.f2s.com/zipped/dandelion.zip
davidflame: http://www.avidflame.f2s.com/zipped/shrubs.zip
davidflame: http://www.avidflame.f2s.com/zipped/floaters.zip
davidflame: http://www.avidflame.f2s.com/zipped/anotherweed.zip
davidflame: http://www.avidflame.f2s.com/zipped/xpalm01.zip
davidflame: K - I've decided to split this session into two parts.
davidflame: One looking at creating photobillboards
davidflame: and then second part - using them
davidflame: I'm not going to be providing the photobillboarding gospel ...according to avidflame ....but just some of the bits I've learned and found useful
davidflame: ok
davidflame: I'm hoping that the zipped files I've given you the links for have some .bmp formatted versions
davidflame: Have they?
14.44.13 Artistken: yup
davidflame: cool
14.44.22 Artistken: all unzipped as .bmp
davidflame: These are the first set of photobillboards I produced ages ago
14.44.54 Artistken: one looks different though
14.45.28 mojobug: What do you use for creating them David?
davidflame: I started out producing .bmp format and then later changed to producing them as PNG
davidflame: The tools I used were Bryce and Photoshop
davidflame: Bryce for rendering the trees
davidflame: and I also rendered a mask image for an alpha channel
davidflame: Those .bmp files are setup with alpha channels
davidflame: which is what?
davidflame: lol
14.48.02 mojobug: Isn't that why we're here?;)
davidflame: Since theres a bunch of mojo old-timers online
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14.48.26 Artistken: Hello Eric!
14.49.12 mojobug: Hello Infidel
14.49.21 edegiuli: hello people
davidflame: ;)
davidflame: I've just started covering photobillboards - beginning with creating them
14.50.35 lewis: Hi
davidflame: Theres a bunch of formats you can produce photobillboards with - if you read the manual and the box
davidflame: But some are shall we say 'troublesome'
davidflame: hornery critters
14.51.56 Artistken: Some work a little better than others.
davidflame: Exactly
davidflame: Which do you have disagreements with Ken?
davidflame: hehe!
davidflame: TGA?
14.53.31 Artistken: It seems to be all about how well your particular system handles alpha channel information and how the file is saved with regard to compression.
14.54.18 Artistken: Mostly I find .png's to work best on my system although I usually prefer .tga's for any ind of alpha images.
14.54.52 Artistken: I often have difficulty getting MJW to recognize .tif for some strange reason.
14.55.28 Artistken: .bmp is usually safe for me as well
davidflame: If you want to load one of the photobilloards from the MJW 3 library you can check out the drop down mention and see what the file format options are
davidflame: My preferences were .bmp and .png
14.56.21 Artistken: :-)
davidflame: but that was just what I could work with easily on my system
davidflame: Have you guys got Photoshop or another Image editor
14.57.14 Artistken: PS
14.57.20 mojobug: Gimp2
14.57.44 AceHarddrive: PSP
davidflame: Not used gimp or Paint shop Pro
14.58.11 Artistken: as long as it does layers and has alpha capability its pretty much ok
davidflame: ;)
14.58.28 mojobug: That's OK...I've never used Photoshop...Can't afford it
davidflame: I'm actually going to cover two methods for making photobillboards
davidflame: one with an alpha channel - one without
davidflame: The first approach was what I started out using
davidflame: Its what I used to produce those .bmp files
davidflame: For that approach what I did was import a mesh into Bryce or setup a Bryce tree and then render it
davidflame: Then in Bryce I set up a mask render
davidflame: Basically a black and white image
davidflame: the white part being the object I was focussing on and the black being everything else
davidflame: Caly actually did a tutorial on producing mask renders with MJW
davidflame: If I remember right it involved changing the materials - to black and white
davidflame: I'll grab the link
davidflame: http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/tutorial/mask/index.html
davidflame: Here you'll find a tutorial on how to do it in MJW
davidflame: You might like to do some mojotree renders and then setup mask renders to produce photobillboards of them for use in other pics
davidflame: This should help you with that :)
15.07.48 edegiuli: I am away.
davidflame: If you've had problems with large forests in MJtrees this might be a work around
davidflame: ;)
davidflame: k - you all with me so far?
15.09.34 AceHarddrive: yup
15.09.36 Artistken: he he Large Forests (in Homer voice)
15.09.41 mojobug: *processin Info*bleep
davidflame: lol
15.10.54 mojobug: Torus! drool (in Homer Voice)
davidflame: k heres a tutorial on masking in photoshop
davidflame: http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/photoshop/l/blrbps_2fwks.htm
davidflame: Cheating ...lol
davidflame: getting the information from the web rather than producing it myself
davidflame: In this tutorial it shows you how to create a mask
davidflame: What I was doing was using Bryce to create the mask
davidflame: then loading that into PS
davidflame: Basically I was loading in my tree pic or whatever
davidflame: Then loading in a mask render to go over that pic
davidflame: I copy/pasted the mask render into a new layer of the tree image I was using for producing a photobillboard
davidflame: then I started do some of what is shown in the firework imagery in that tutorial I gave you the link to
davidflame: I think I chose the blue channel
davidflame: But since we're talking about a b/w image ...it doesn't really matter does it <grin>
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15.20.05 AceHarddrive: nope
davidflame: You guys still around ;)
15.20.29 mojobug: Yep...just nothing to say
davidflame: K
15.20.36 AceHarddrive: whaaaaa
davidflame: I struggled with masking and alpha channels
15.20.56 AceHarddrive: just listenin'
15.21.18 mojobug: It's not polite to interrupt the teacher...
davidflame: The good thing with the link I gave you is you can take images ...any image and create your own photobilloards using those steps
15.22.42 mojobug: I've been struggling with transparencies myself...UGH!
davidflame: so you don't need to have access to another program to produce mask renders
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davidflame: But if you've got a fairly simple shape - heres a second method you can easily apply
davidflame: It should translate to Gimp and PSP easily
15.24.56 mojobug: I'll dig into that Tutorial
davidflame: With the rendered images I did - I chose a single colour background
15.25.34 Artistken: keep going dave we w you
davidflame: I guess its akin to blue screening
davidflame: With the single colour background and a simple shape
davidflame: load the image into your image editor
davidflame: Duplicate layer
davidflame: Can you do that OK in Gimp and PSP?
15.27.26 AceHarddrive: yup
15.27.38 mojobug: Gimp is almost a PS Clone
davidflame: cool
15.27.52 AceHarddrive: poor man's PS
15.28.03 mojobug: ;)
davidflame: k so with the original image copied to a new layer ...on top of the original
davidflame: apply the magic wand
davidflame: in the plain colour outside the featured content you want to use
davidflame: so you mark out the plain coloured area other than the content for your billboard
davidflame: .....and cut
davidflame: Ouch!
15.30.25 mojobug: You should be more careful with those scissors!
davidflame: ;)
davidflame: Now select the square/oblong outline selection tool and select all of the image space
davidflame: Now copy your selection
davidflame: Don't copy merged
davidflame: only copy the selected layer
davidflame: OK so far
15.33.14 mojobug: yup
davidflame: k now selection new
davidflame: and choose transparent
davidflame: the size is set to fit the copied content from the original image
davidflame: Paste the copied content onto the transparent new image
davidflame: Hey presto photobillboard ready tree, shrub whatever
davidflame: At this point I chose to save as .PNG
davidflame: but I'm guessing you can select other options
davidflame: That was just my preference
15.37.17 mojobug: PNG seems to work best in MJW
15.37.53 mojobug: And they seem to look better in the final product
davidflame: Yes that was my experience Bug ...though different people have different file preferences
davidflame: PNG worked well for me ;)
davidflame: This second method avoids problems with masking and alpha channeling but if you have a complex shape it can be hardwork cutting out within the main shape
davidflame: if you have spaces which are actual background areas
davidflame: but I found it worked fine for what I produced
davidflame: Also I wasn't happy with the quality of the results I achieved using .bmp format
davidflame: but thats something which we can explore in the second part of the session
davidflame: Time for a break now
davidflame: Yipeee!!!
davidflame: If you want to get a cuppa/ have a cig ...whatever 15 mins OK?
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15.44.28 Artistken: Slav! greetings!
15.44.38 AceHarddrive: he's in MojoCafe
15.44.51 AceHarddrive: not here, yet
15.44.53 Artistken: oops! he he
15.45.09 AceHarddrive: just in time to take a cig break!
15.45.29 mojobug: You took the words out of my mouth,Ace
15.45.31 Artistken: I writing email to Krummenhacker.
15.45.32 AceHarddrive: I tried the second method on a fractal and it works just fine
15.45.45 lewis: Hi Slav
15.45.49 Artistken: Ther he is! Hey Slav!
15.45.51 Yaroslav: Hi guys
15.45.59 AceHarddrive: Hey slav!
15.46.01 mojobug: Got here just in time for the cig break!
15.46.14 Yaroslav: :)...I`m always on time:)
15.46.25 mojobug: ;)
15.46.33 AceHarddrive: He's not late for today, just early for next week
15.46.39 Yaroslav: How`s your session going?
15.46.57 AceHarddrive: can't complain
davidflame: Yeah Tim ...my preference was second method ...but the masking and channels as more usefulness in terms of creating things other than photobillboards
15.47.01 mojobug: Well.....
15.47.03 Yaroslav: I just showedup to say I`m back:)
15.47.31 AceHarddrive: Didja get wet, slav?
15.47.48 AceHarddrive: Or are you far enough away from the ocean?
15.48.00 Yaroslav: Yeah in Turkey
15.48.23 AceHarddrive: Oh, right! Forgot!
15.48.25 mojobug: You're surrounded by water there
15.48.34 Yaroslav: absolutely:)
davidflame: Anybody know if using a bitmap as an heightield on a mesh displacement will have an effect?
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davidflame: I've been doing some work using buildings closer up ...and the stone walls look a bit like cardboard boxes with walls painted on
15.53.12 Artistken: Woz!
15.53.25 AceHarddrive: not yet, ken
15.53.38 mojobug: .obj work best for buildings IMHO
15.54.26 Artistken: dave, I think the answer is yes. I used a b&w; bitmad to displace the scales on the dragons I posted
davidflame: I starting musing about it as an option
15.55.03 Artistken: I raised them only about .5m but it seemed to be working ok.
davidflame: Thanks Ken
15.55.30 mojobug: Ken: got a good lead on a Free Dragon mesh?
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davidflame: I've got a lot of new architectural stuff that I want to do close-ups of and needed more ooomph to the brickwork - so thats great news Ken ;)
15.56.32 Yaroslav: I think bitmaps on the meshes worked as bump and not like the displacement...may be I`m wrong
15.56.46 Artistken: I used a poser dragon
15.57.25 mojobug: Ahhhh
15.57.27 Yaroslav: At least it worked that way till MW2.0
15.58.13 Artistken: Yes slav, I think you are correct. they do seem to behave more as bumps than actual displacements. When looking close and from the side the actual mesh is still smooth.
15.58.29 Yaroslav: The way to check out is to get close to the model...if it`s a bump you`ll get the messed up image
16.00.08 Yaroslav: CloseUps on the bump applied surface is not a very good idea, David.
davidflame: :(
16.00.49 Artistken: Yes , the closer you get the worse it will get.
davidflame: Ach!
16.01.48 Yaroslav: Is Anne here?
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16.02.06 Artistken: someplace
16.02.10 Yaroslav: :)
davidflame: snoozing probably <grin>
16.02.45 Yaroslav: Oh...I see another 3dc mod here:)
16.02.54 Yaroslav: Lew!
16.02.55 Artistken: I have not tried using any displacements on a billboard.
16.03.29 lewis: Hi !
davidflame: I have on squares and they worked OK
16.03.41 Artistken: cool!
davidflame: I used them for some abstracts I did
16.04.02 Artistken: you shou8ld be able to map a brick wall text then no prob
davidflame: so I would expect they'd be OK on billboards
davidflame: Yes thats something I asked dmytry to work on ...brickwork and stonework
16.05.16 Artistken: didnt he post some brisk fg someplace?
16.05.26 Artistken: sorry I mean a brick fg
davidflame: Yeah ...but they were too simplistic in form to use on an actual building
davidflame: more a proof of concept
16.06.05 Artistken: Ah ok I see
16.06.10 Artistken: ned variation
davidflame: yep
davidflame: K ready for part two?
16.06.49 Yaroslav: Cool FG....too bad it`s not working on the Terrain, Ken
davidflame: Using photobillboards
16.07.24 Artistken: Slav you meanthe bricks dont work on terrain?
16.07.59 AceHarddrive: I thought you said you were splitting it up and doing part two next week?
16.08.16 Artistken: either way I'm o kwith part 2 now.
16.08.30 AceHarddrive: yup
davidflame: I meant two parts today <grin>
16.08.49 Artistken: he he
16.08.54 AceHarddrive: hehe
davidflame: Now Slav's here ....I have to at least to make it look like I'm doing something
davidflame: lol
16.09.27 Artistken: noted: Begin chapter 2 - Using the photobillboards
16.09.41 AceHarddrive: Yeah...Look busy!
16.09.45 Yaroslav: LOL...but I`m leaving now...haha
16.10.06 Artistken: see ya Slav.
davidflame: I've hustled .... I mean invited some new blood into the sessions
16.10.20 AceHarddrive: leaving us so soon?
16.10.25 lewis: bye Slav
16.10.36 Yaroslav: I was late anyway
davidflame: So Woz and Lewis will be doing some in coming weeks
davidflame: K see ya Slav
16.11.10 Yaroslav: Just checked on David...if his kind to you and stuff
davidflame: I'll email you about coming weeks content
davidflame: Now you're back home and online
davidflame: ...and now back to the billboards
16.13.55 Artistken: go dave go!
davidflame: K - I'm guessing you guys have already had a play with billboards to varying degrees
davidflame: Some more than others ....Ken ...lol
16.14.22 AceHarddrive: you guess right
16.14.30 Artistken: yup
16.14.44 Yaroslav: Chiao.....>>>>>>
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davidflame: Going back to the mesh importing i was talking about 15 mins ago
davidflame: and doing close-ups
davidflame: anybody tried any closeups on billboards?
16.16.32 AceHarddrive: nope
16.16.58 AceHarddrive: don't everybody chime in at once!
davidflame: hehe!
davidflame: Imagine what its like for me ....I asked the question ...lol
16.17.36 AceHarddrive: true
davidflame: I think of them similar to bitmapped content on meshes
davidflame: Their not fractals
davidflame: So theres a limited range in which they can look decent
16.19.37 Artistken: sorry dave, yes I have gotten quite close, at least full screen close.
davidflame: How good did it look Ken?
16.20.31 Artistken: it looked good but I created the bitmap to the same size knowing it would get that big in the shot
davidflame: aha!
16.21.01 Artistken: so it was never stretched just scaled smaller and there was also no transparency
16.21.16 Artistken: it was a solid edge to edge
davidflame: ;)
16.21.31 Artistken: a roadside billboard!
davidflame: kewl
davidflame: My own perception of billboards is that generally - their going to be secondary content
16.22.31 Artistken: trans mapped are more problematic especially if scaled larger than the original image
davidflame: ie background pieces
16.23.22 AceHarddrive: I gotta go guys. Keep it going!
16.23.36 Artistken: yup
davidflame: K see ya Tim
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davidflame: In MJW Focus they sold it has being good for importing pics of yourself as a billboard into an alien environment
davidflame: To do that you would have the billboard as a central feature and would need to be careful with how you set it up
davidflame: I've had some pretty ugly results with billboards
davidflame: lol
davidflame: Generally because I overstretched them
davidflame: Better to work with adjusting distance from rather than size of billboards
16.27.40 Artistken: Agreed!
davidflame: The other thing ...if possible. Make them as big as you can ...if you're going to produce your own billboards
davidflame: I made some of mine too small
davidflame: Knowing what I know now I'd make them bigger
davidflame: at an higher resolution
davidflame: That way you've got more room to play with
16.30.10 Artistken: Also Agreed! You can get extreme but my rule of thumb is make them as big as you expect to render. they stay 1:1 and look great!
davidflame: Yep ...we're on the same wavelength ;)
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davidflame: wb bug
16.31.14 Artistken: wb bug
16.31.30 mojobug: I must have lost my connection
davidflame: Anybody played with the parameters for controlling the billboards?
davidflame: ie sharpness/contrast
16.32.47 mojobug: Not yet
davidflame: Its a little like having a mini gimp in there ...lol
16.33.34 mojobug: I take that back I messed a little w/sharpness
davidflame: It can have some effect on the look of the billboard ...but getting them setup at decent resolutions before you loaded them is better
davidflame: Hehe! theres also a control for adjusting the res the billboards display in the RTR
davidflame: When I first started using billboards I had them displaying better in the RTR view than in the finished photo-realistic renders ...lol
davidflame: I generally incrase the RTR resolution of the one I'm working on to the maximum
davidflame: If you are working with quite a few different billboards
davidflame: increasing the resolution of the billboard when you;ve got it setup in a position you like is an easy way to keep track as you work through the group
16.39.28 mojobug: Are you talking about the controls in the Mat Tree?
davidflame: Yes ....the one at the bottom
16.40.17 mojobug: OK
davidflame: Check it out
davidflame: you can change how the billboard displays in the RTR
davidflame: I did an image with lots of different billboards ie different plants and trees and each time I finished fine-tuning the look of each billboard I adjusted how it showed in the RTR
davidflame: It was my way of keeping track
16.42.41 mojobug: At The bottom?? I mean the Mat Tree of the billboard itself. are you talking about another control?
davidflame: Hold on I'm blind at the moment
davidflame: no mojo running <grin>
16.43.52 mojobug: Being blind and having MJW is rather silly....
16.44.20 Artistken: it is in the material leaf under GL preview
davidflame: thanks Ken
16.44.43 Artistken: np
16.46.10 Artistken: default is 128x128 , you can also deisble visibility here
16.46.18 Artistken: disable
16.46.36 Artistken: for preview only it will still render
davidflame: ;)
davidflame: Theres not much call for the alpha channel controls - ie invert/disable if the image was originally setup correctly
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davidflame: further up the page
davidflame: But their there if you need them
davidflame: One of the other things which is useful with the billboards is the ability to set them up to face the camera
16.51.37 Artistken: yup
davidflame: pointless have a billboard side on <grin>
davidflame: Ken ...when preparing to do a big scene with photobillboards do you do preliminary sketches ...so you have an idea where things are going to go?
16.53.29 Artistken: gets a bit tricky with shadows sometimes as the board goes sideways to the sun
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16.53.50 mojobug: I keep losing my connection
davidflame: :(
16.54.14 Artistken: I should more often but usually no. Just don't tell my students that! LOL
davidflame: lol
16.54.51 Artistken: I usually have a fair idea of what I want to layout before I start though. otherwise its all experimentation.
davidflame: Yeah this is part of series of sessions on loading content into mjw scenes and we started with preliminary sketching
16.56.17 mojobug: I can't even draw a stickman, let alone a sketch of an intended MJW!
davidflame: You could write it Bug
16.56.49 Artistken: it is a good practice even to use stick figures if need be
davidflame: Just do a square and put a, b, c in different locations
davidflame: to represent content
davidflame: just to give you an idea of the general layout
davidflame: http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?MojoWorld+WEZw1RKAk+1101942040+&v_index;=6&nd;=1105288538
16.58.06 Artistken: helps you from going astray from the concept and wind up off on some wild experiment! a common Mojo distraction.
davidflame: Heres one I did - nothing fancy
davidflame: Yes - I move between experimentation and direct production
16.59.04 mojobug: I guess I sketch in my mind
16.59.35 Artistken: thats what I do mostly bug, it is an old habit
16.59.41 mojobug: I think to myself this will go here and that will go there
davidflame: and with billboards - if I'm using them I tend to be doing it from a less experimental and more planned perspective
17.00.04 Artistken: I agree, especially with boards.
17.00.21 Artistken: They are always for a specific purpose
davidflame: ;)
davidflame: I think sketching also is useful from the perspective of group approach
17.01.08 Artistken: and as such I "plan" them in to my compositions
davidflame: If you move into developing pieces produce by more than one person
davidflame: sketches provide communication of an idea
17.02.20 mojobug: With last nights work, I already knew what I was going to do before I started. I just didn't have it on paper
17.02.46 Artistken: precisely why we teach it and push it at school, most things in the "real world" are team projects and need to be communicated to everyone in the same way.
davidflame: Yes
17.03.39 Artistken: moving on now, he he
17.04.13 mojobug: My work is pretty singular...Me and the Bugs....
17.04.53 mojobug: ;)
davidflame: Yeah ...I introduced sketching at the start because when I upped the complexity of the content I was loading in - it got too difficult to track mentally
davidflame: Secondly because as MJW develops theres a point where it becomes more of a professional tool ...and sketching is good to have in your toolkit ...as Ken pointed out - its something they teach
davidflame: but its an option - not an essential
davidflame: ...and finally
davidflame: a cheat
davidflame: lol
davidflame: Something I discovered to cover up some botched billboard renders
davidflame: If you find you get a bad looking billboard render
davidflame: Heres something you can do
davidflame: Load it into Photoshop
davidflame: and paste the billboarded content into the position of the rendered version of that content
davidflame: you can adjust the opacity/levels/colouration to fit in
davidflame: and it may save an image where the rest of it looks OK
davidflame: Gets harder if you've not setup the billboards to be straight onto the camera
davidflame: but its a quick fix ....if needed. Until you get to grips with billlboarding for yourself
davidflame: http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?MojoWorld+WEZw1RKAk+1101942040+&v_index;=6&nd;=1105288538
17.13.22 mojobug: I can see that. Sometimes I turn and tweak the billboard
davidflame: The tree on the right was done that way <grin>
17.14.52 Artistken: Hence the reason for making sure your original is at least as big as you intend for te finish render to be.
davidflame: Exactly ;)
davidflame: The other thing is - once you've got the billboards setup for use
davidflame: You can add them to finished renders in postwork
davidflame: as in this pic http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?MojoWorld+WEZw1RKAk+1101942294+&v_index;=6&nd;=1105288538
17.16.37 mojobug: Monitor adjustment question...Does this look too dark on other monitors? http://65.32.1.161/imbadbug/castlerock.jpg
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davidflame: On this LCD monitor it looks ok but on my CRT monitor I know it would look too dark ....hehe!
17.19.09 mojobug: I still use a CRT...19" LCD too expensive!
davidflame: K anything else to add on Billboards?
17.19.24 Artistken: yup it seems a bit dar and lacking dynamic range on my Mitsu 20
17.19.50 mojobug: Thanks...Postwork time!
17.20.07 Artistken: Good job Dave!
davidflame: Thanks ;)
davidflame: If you're up for doing some sessions some time Ken
davidflame: You're more than welcome
17.21.47 Artistken: Maybe we should do one on how to implement everything you just covered and apply it to using Mojotree to distribute "billboard trees"
davidflame: In future weeks theres something planned for drawing it all together
davidflame: thats why I mentioned the sketching <grin>
17.22.41 Artistken: krumenhacker and I have been perfecting it by using leaves as the billboard faces
davidflame: Ah ...got you .... you mean the new potential as in Bernards avatar
17.23.35 Artistken: well actually it is far from perfect but it does have some interesting potential.
17.23.49 Artistken: yup
davidflame: Using mojotrees to distribute billboarded trees - that would be an excellent session
davidflame: Much appreciated
davidflame: Have you still got my email address Ken
17.26.01 Artistken: maybe I could do another one on how to squeek out good loking large and dense forest scenes.
17.26.06 mojobug: I've got to go to the market. You folks all have a fine one!
17.26.15 Artistken: see ya bug !
davidflame: Thanks for joining in bug
davidflame: See ya soon
17.26.31 Artistken: not sure dave but I can get it off the team list yes?
17.26.35 mojobug: I always enjoy the sessions
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