Transcript of Dennis Rader sentencing August 17, 2005 Part Three: the murders of Nancy Fox and Marine Hedge
1 IN THE EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
DISTRICT COURT, SEDGWICK COUNTY, KANSAS
2 CRIMINAL DEPARTMENT
3
4 STATE OF KANSAS, )
)
5 Plaintiff, )
)
6 vs.) Case No. 05 CR 498
) VOLUME III
7 DENNIS L. RADER, )
WEDNESDAY, 8-17-05
) FIRST P.M. SESSION
8 Defendant. )
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10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF SENTENCING PROCEEDINGS
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13 PROCEEDINGS had before the Honorable Gregory L.
14 Waller, Judge of Division 5 of the Eighteenth Judicial
15 District of Kansas, on the 17th day of August, 2005.
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17 APPEARANCES
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19 The State of Kansas appeared by and through, Ms.
20 Nola Foulston, District Attorney, Ms. Kim Parker, Chief
21 Deputy District Attorney, Mr. Kevin O'Connor, Deputy
22 District Attorney, and Mr. Aaron Smith, Assistant District
23 Attorney, Sedgwick County Courthouse Annex, 535 North
24 Main, Wichita, Kansas 67203.
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JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 The Defendant appeared in person and with counsel,
2 Mr. Charles S. Osburn, Chief Public Defender, and Ms.
3 Sarah McKinnon, Assistant Public Defender, 604 North Main,
4 Suite D, Wichita, Kansas 67203.
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JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1I N D E X
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3 State's Witnesses: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
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Detective Tim Relph 4
5 Sergeant Tom Lee 57
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10 Defendant's Witnesses:
11 NONE
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14 E X H I B I T S
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16 For the State:MARKED OFFERED RECEIVED W/DRAWN
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20 For the Defendant:
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JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 THE COURT: All right. We are back on the
2 record in State vs. Rader.
3 MS. FOULSTON: The State calls Detective
4 Timothy Relph.
5 Your Honor, may I stay seated for this portion of
6 the examination?
7 THE COURT: You may.
8 MS. FOULSTON: Thank you.
9 TIMOTHY RELPH,
10 called as a witness, on behalf of the State, after having
11 been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. FOULSTON:
14 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
15 A. Hello.
16 Q. For the record, please state your name.
17 A. My name is Timothy Relph.
18 Q. And are you the detective that was working with the
19 BTK Task Force assigned to the matter of Nancy Fox?
20 A. Yes, I was.
21 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the date on which Nancy Fox was
22 murdered in the City of Wichita?
23 A. On December the 8th of 1977.
24 Q. And you have been a detective with the Wichita Police
25 Department for how long, sir?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 A. I've been with the Wichita Police Department since
2 1985.
3 Q. How long have you been assigned to the Cold Case Squad
4 that investigated the homicides, involving the
5 homicide and death of Nancy Fox?
6 A. Since March of 2004.
7 Q. In connection with your relationship with the BTK Task
8 Force, there were a number of different detectives
9 that were assigned under the administration of the
10 police department and under the leadership of
11 Lieutenant Landwehr; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct, yes.
13 Q. And during that time, individual detectives were
14 assigned to specific homicides, the 10 in number, that
15 were under that cold case; is that correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And you were specifically assigned then to the Nancy
18 Fox homicide?
19 A. Myself and FBI Chuck Pritchett.
20 Q. Tell me how you went about investigating or reviewing
21 the Nancy Fox case.
22 A. You try to obtain the records that have accumulated
23 over a long period of time. You try to review them,
24 and you contact some of the police officers that were
25 involved in the original investigation. You meet the
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 family. And you start just kind of -- kind of like
2 working the case like it was assigned to you like it
3 was the first time you've seen it. Make sure that the
4 initial obvious leads were pursued. And just kind of
5 -- and then, as you see how the case, progressed, see
6 where the evidence -- you certainly review all the
7 evidence in the case, and just try to become familiar
8 so as tips would come in or things would surface or
9 questions would come up in reference to the Fox case
10 that you would be ready to answer those.
11 Q. So regardless of the date on which the homicide
12 occurred, you were assigned this case to look at it
13 from the beginning and actually act on this case as if
14 it were new to you, and to the others assigned with
15 you, in a reexamination of the Nancy Fox homicide; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yeah. I think Chuck and I were -- just wanted to meet
18 everybody that was involved. And some people, of
19 course, have passed away. But we just wanted to
20 become aware so -- everybody tries over the years to
21 put everything in reports, but sometimes it just
22 doesn't make it there. And some of those reports, you
23 know, are not very legible. And so it just helps to
24 kind of contact everybody that you can and become
25 familiar with the perspective from when it was first
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 being worked.
2 Q. Let me take you back then to the morning of December
3 9th, 1977. Can you tell me about the discovery of
4 Nancy Fox at her home on 843 South Pershing here in
5 our community? Tell me what happened.
6 A. At approximately 818 hours, a call was transferred
7 from the phone operator to the police dispatcher. On
8 the end of the line was an individual that had told
9 the dispatcher that, you will find a homicide at 843
10 South Pershing. Indicated that it was one Nancy Fox.
11 There was some clarification. One of the people --
12 one of the operators asked for the address. One of
13 the other operators repeated, and the person on the
14 phone indicated that was correct. And at that time
15 the phone was left hanging at what turned out to be
16 the phone at Central and St. Francis.
17 Q. And that would have been at the old Organ's Market at
18 that location; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And were officers then dispatched to that 843 South
21 Pershing address?
22 A. Officer Joe Dipietra and several other officers were
23 initially dispatched to the location. Officer
24 Dipietra went around the back. When he first tried to
25 make entry -- first knock on the door, there wasn't
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 any answer. He started to check all the windows and
2 doors. And when he went around to the back window, he
3 noticed that the back window department was open. He
4 could look in through that apartment window, and he
5 saw a female lying on a bed face down. He called
6 several other officers. And a very short time later,
7 entry was made into the apartment, and Nancy Fox was
8 discovered.
9 Q. At the time in 1977, officers were assigned to
10 investigate that homicide; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, ma'am.
12 Q. Was there a determination as to the cause of death?
13 A. She died by strangulation.
14 Q. And for the officers at that time, a number of them
15 worked on that case and continued their work, was
16 there a point in time when a suspect identified
17 himself or emerged as the person who might have killed
18 Nancy Fox?
19 A. In early 2005, the suspect of Dennis Rader emerged.
20 Q. And how did that person identify himself as the
21 individual who had killed Nancy Fox?
22 A. How did -- how did -- how did we become aware of him?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. We became aware of him through he sent in some
25 communications. And through those communications,
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 through the work of many people, but, certainly, the
2 work of Detective Stone and some others -- determined
3 some of the possible locations where a floppy disk
4 came from. Once those possible locations -- once we
5 were able to determine a name connected with those
6 locations, we were dispatched out to 6220 Independence
7 -- well, actually, we weren't dispatched. We left
8 immediately. And when we went by the house, we
9 discovered a vehicle that we had been looking for.
10 And from that point on, the name Dennis Lynn Rader
11 became the suspect.
12 Q. So for a number of years then, from the death of Nancy
13 Fox in 1977, until communication was made through the
14 media, there was no person that was identified -- that
15 was located as the actual suspect in the Nancy Fox
16 murder; is that correct?
17 A. I know leads were pursued, but for -- to say that
18 someone was -- you know, any kind of preparation of
19 affidavits or any real believe that we had the
20 suspect, no. The only suspect that has emerged with
1 evidence to corroborate it was Dennis Rader.
2 Q. All right. But, actually, it was the individual who
3 identified himself as BTK who claimed that he had been
4 the one to kill Nancy Fox by communication through the
5 media; is that correct?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 A. Oh, yes, ma'am.
2 Q. And then subsequently after a number of years of
3 police work and finally in February of this year, that
4 individual, BTK, was then identified as Dennis Rader?
5 A. That's correct, ma'am.
6 Q. And you were involved in the actual capture and arrest
7 of Dennis Rader; is that correct?
8 A. Myself and about 200 other policemen.
9 Q. All right. And I understand that during the time of
10 the arrest -- I think you're modest, but that you were
11 actually involved in the driving of Mr. Rader back to
12 the police station at the time that he was arrested;
13 is that right?
14 A. I was part of the arrest team, yes, ma'am.
15 Q. When he returned back to the location where the law
16 enforcement officers were prepared to bring him in, at
17 that point was an interrogation commenced?
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. And were you privy -- or did you watch and observe the
20 interrogation of Mr. Rader on February the 25th of the
21 year 2005?
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. And during that time, did you also observe his
24 willingness to give a voluntary statement to law
25 enforcement officers?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. And did you know that this lasted for some 30 or more
3 hours where he voluntarily gave statements to law
4 enforcement officers?
5 A. I'm very aware of how long it lasted.
6 Q. During that time, as you were observing the statements
7 being given by Mr. Rader, were you at some point in
8 time selected to individually speak with him about any
9 particular case?
10 A. Not individually. Myself and Agent Pritchett would go
11 in together in reference to -- we would go in on --
12 actually, we would go in on three different occasions.
13 The first time was to talk about the murder of Nancy
14 Fox. And then we had two subsequent interviews in
15 reference to all the communications starting from
16 October of '74 to the last communication in February
17 of 2005.
18 Q. All right. So you had several opportunities to visit
19 with him individually or with Agent Pritchett
20 concerning involvement of various stages in the
21 information that you were gathering; is that right?
22 A. That was always with Chuck, yes.
23 Q. All right. Let me direct your attention specifically
24 to discussions with Mr. Rader regarding the homicide
25 involving Nancy Fox. First, can you describe to me
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 Mr. Rader's demeanor? How did he act? And how did he
2 receive you and Agent Pritchett in the discussions
3 that you had with him?
4 A. Oh, when we -- when I first met him, he wanted us to
5 make sure we had either given him cards or wrote down
6 his names because -- or wrote down our names because
7 he was gonna -- he was sure he was gonna meet so many
8 people that come tomorrow he wasn't going to remember
9 our names. And so we made sure that we gave him our
10 names, and Chuck presented his ID, and we made sure he
11 was very aware of who we were.
12 Q. At the time -- at the time that you met him do you
13 recall what period of time it was during the day?
14 A. When I met him?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. 12:15.
17 Q. In the afternoon?
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. Did he appear to be well rested and fed?
20 A. Well, when I first met him, we were taking him to the
21 police car.
22 Q. All right. Subsequent to that, when you sat down to
23 talk with him about the Nancy Fox case, was he aware
24 and alert when you spoke with him?
25 A. Oh, yes, ma'am. He had been -- at his request, he had
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 been fed. He had several -- whatever drinks he had
2 asked for. In fact, he sat down with us and he said,
3 you know, let's -- kind of waved at me and said, let's
4 move on.
5 Q. All right. Was he aware that you were going to be
6 then talking about the Nancy Fox case?
7 A. Yes, ma'am.
8 Q. So how did he act towards you?
9 A. I couldn't -- I mean, he was -- um, he seemed very
10 eager to get to the case at hand.
11 Q. Behind you on the screen are some selections from the
12 videotape. And have you had an opportunity recently
13 to go back and look at that videotaped statement that
14 was made by Mr. Rader?
15 A. Yes, ma'am.
16 Q. And you've also had an opportunity to look at this
17 PowerPoint presentation, haven't you?
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. And so you know that there are some selections of the
20 testimony and the statements that he made that are
21 infused into this PowerPoint. You understand that?
22 A. I understand.
23 Q. And so as we go through this, I'll be asking you to
24 turn and to look at that as we discuss some of the
25 testimony that you're giving in light of the
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 statements that he made. If you can do that, please.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. All right. So I'm going to ask you to turn around and
4 ask if you recall what the original statements that
5 were made and regarding the statements that's on the
6 PowerPoint now.
7 A. Yes. When we first introduced ourselves and told him
8 that we were assigned to the Nancy Fox case, he
9 immediately told us that that was called Project
10 Foxhunt. And that this one stuck out in his mind --
11 or this was one of his more -- he liked this case
12 because it had gone the way he wanted it to.
13 Q. Were you able to identify why he chose the name of
14 Project Foxhunt?
15 A. I think, obviously, the name of fox, and because he
16 always kind of -- he always kind of saw himself as a
17 hunter.
18 Q. And the project portion, were you aware of why he used
19 the wording project?
20 A. Well, he explained that to us at -- on several
21 occasions. But that projects were PJ's was his way of
22 designating either -- he had many, many PJ's that he
23 told us about. And this was his way of designating a
24 way to remember them. It was usually -- he usually
25 didn't know these people's names at the beginning.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 And so he -- but this one he knew rather quickly
2 because he went up and checked her mailbox. But most
3 of the times the name would have something to do with
4 like the location or something in the area. But this
5 one, since he had gotten the name rather quickly, he
6 named it Foxhunt.
7 Q. Okay. And so to him it was a project?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. I've showed you a photograph -- and if could you
10 identify this, please.
11 A. This is Nancy J. Fox.
12 Q. And at the time of her death, how old was she?
13 A. 25 years old.
14 Q. I'm going to show you another photograph -- two
15 photographs that have been given to us by Nancy's
16 family. Can you identify the photograph to the right?
17 You see Nancy pictured in that photograph?
18 A. Sure.
19 Q. And that would be with her brothers and sisters?
20 A. Right. It's her sister, Beverly, and her brothers,
21 Fred, David, and Kevin.
22 Q. And then the younger family to the left -- to your
23 left.
24 A. Are you sure that's the -- Nancy's mother has told me
25 that's her family, but picking them all out that would
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 be --
2 Q. That would be tough.
3 A. Well, I'll leave that to them.
4 Q. Okay. Here's another statement that came from the
5 transcript. Can you explain what it -- what complete
6 control meant to Dennis Rader as he explained it to
7 you?
8 A. There were several things about this case that he --
9 that this went just the way he wanted it. The
10 apartment next to it was vacant. No one was going to
11 hear any screaming. And on top of that while Nancy
12 resisted in some ways, she didn't scream. And so --
13 but he didn't have anybody bothering him. It went
14 just the way he wanted it. He had had so many
15 interruptions in the other cases, but this one went
16 right according to script.
17 Q. As you have been involved in listening and being aware
18 of the other cases, you were -- you did know about
19 some of the issues that he had had in the Otero case,
20 the Vian case, and also in the Bright case with the
21 interruptions and problems that he had had; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes, ma'am.
24 Q. And so this came after those, and so in his explaining
25 this to you, was he comparing the differences between
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1 those issues that he had had versus the Nancy Fox
2 case?
3 A. Yes, ma'am. He had interruptions with children. He
4 had had problems with control. He had unanticipated
5 victims. But this one went one person, just how he
6 thought it would go.
7 Q. Again -- and going on with what you referred to as the
8 fact that he had control, he indicated that he called
9 this a perfect hit. And did he explain that farther
10 -- further?
11 A. He explained how this one went. How he had done his
12 trolling and his stalking, and how he had -- how he
13 had had this set out and how it was going to go. And
14 this one went -- like I said, this was a build up from
15 the others, but this was -- this, as he explained,
16 this was what he would call his perfect hit.
17 Q. He indicated she didn't give him any big ruckus or
18 scream, but she did give him a lot of verbal static?
19 A. He indicated that he almost to some extent enjoyed the
20 verbal -- you know -- the fact that she was -- I think
21 he used the word feisty.
22 Q. Did Mr. Rader indicate to you how he had selected
23 Nancy Fox?
24 A. Yes. He indicated that he had learned that
25 neighborhoods just below middle income with duplexes
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1 and things like this had a way of attracting either
2 single women or women with just children and things
3 like that. And so he had driven through this area.
4 And one day, while driving through the area, he saw
5 Nancy walking into her apartment.
6 Q. Did he learn where she worked?
7 A. Yes. He went up to her mailbox, and he -- and then he
8 would follow her both to her job downtown and to her
9 job at Helzberg.
10 Q. And Nancy was indeed a single female, and she did live
11 alone in a duplex; is that correct?
12 A. As he said, she meant all of his codes.
13 Q. I note that on the screen is a plaque from Helzberg.
14 A. That is correct. That's her -- that was a name tag
15 that she was -- that she used when she went to
16 Helzberg.
17 Q. On the screen is a duplex at 843 South Pershing.
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. Showing the two sides. In which side did she live?
20 A. She lived over here.
21 Q. All right. So that would have been to the south?
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Again, Mr. Rader -- did he indicate any kind of
25 sexual attraction to Nancy Fox?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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1 A. Yes, above and beyond the fact that the events went
2 exactly how he wanted to, he did find Nancy attractive
3 on a sexual level, also. And thought that she was
4 attractive. He very much liked her. Nancy was an
5 extremely organized and clean person, and he very much
6 admired that, also.
7 Q. On the evening in question, that would be December the
8 8th, 1977, did he tell you what his plans were on that
9 evening?
10 A. Yes. He explained to me that he was doing a paper at
11 WSU, and he -- that block of time of working late in
12 the library where everyone expected him to be at the
13 library allowed him an alibi. And so he left the
14 library, because he knew that -- he knew that Nancy
15 got off work about 9:00 o'clock. And he left the
16 library a short time before that.
17 Q. Did he have transportation?
18 A. Yes, he drove a 1962 red Chevelle.
19 Q. And where did he -- when he went to that particular
20 area, where did he leave his vehicle?
21 A. He parked a couple of blocks -- he thought it was a
22 couple of blocks to the west, and then he walked in.
23 Q. And what action did he take in getting to her home?
24 A. That night he thought he had --
25 Q. What was his plan?
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1 A. Oh, I'm sorry. That night he thought he was running a
2 little late, so before he tried to break in, he wanted
3 to make sure she wasn't there. He went up to the door
4 and he knocked. He was going to use some excuse of he
5 thought it was somebody else's apartment. And then
6 when there was no -- if she would have been there, he
7 would have shown his weapon. But if not, then he was
8 ready to proceed to get into the apartment.
9 Q. Okay. We've seen the picture of -- this is a black
10 and white at that same location. And then what -- you
11 know, after seeing the front, going around the front,
12 where did he go then?
13 A. He went around the back of the house. He kind of
14 wanted to make -- he waited between -- that house gets
15 headlights shown on it as cars come around the Lincoln
16 curves, so he wanted to make sure that the lights were
17 done going across. And once he was pretty sure that
18 there wasn't any problems with the headlights, then he
19 went through the back window.
20 Q. All right. I'm showing you now what is a photograph
21 of 843 Pershing --
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. -- from the rear. And do you have your little -- you
24 have a little laser light there. Can you show us the
25 windows that would be in that -- showing that duplex?
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1 A. The duplex had a common wall right down the middle
2 here. This would have been the bathroom window. And
3 this was the window to the one bedroom in the
4 apartment.
5 Q. All right. And I'm going to bring that up close, and
6 that would again be the window to Nancy Fox's
7 apartment?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. And next to it -- or adjacent to it, I see what
10 appears to be a wire. What would that be?
11 A. That was her phone -- phone wire.
12 Q. All right. And it looks like it's been slit there?
13 A. It's been cut.
14 Q. Now, looking at that window, I see something that
15 looks a little bit different in the window pane
16 itself. Are these crime scene photographs?
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. And does that depict anything in that window that
19 looks a little hard to see?
20 A. What they're trying to show the most is that the
21 majority of the screen of this window has been taken
22 away. It'll be -- it'll be found over by -- well, you
23 can't see it -- it'll be found over by the fence right
24 to the south. But the majority of the screen of this
25 window has been pulled away, and the window has not
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1 been shut completely, and it's not locked.
2 Q. And, also, in this photograph it does show that the
3 telephone line has also been cut?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. Okay. In relating to you any more information about
6 Ms. Fox, we have a description from Mr. Rader. Do you
7 recall his statements in that regard?
8 A. Yes, ma'am. He -- like I said, he -- from watching
9 her before, he thought that she dressed neatly.
10 Always kept herself looking very nice. But once in
11 the house, he even admired her more, because her house
12 was so neatly kept. It was all laid out, and that
13 gave him the indication that she was a good family
14 girl. And with that, he told me, leave it to a weird
15 guy like me to do that.
16 Q. How long did he stalk Nancy Fox?
17 A. Couldn't really tell me specifically. He thought
18 maybe around two or three months, but he -- he doesn't
19 really stalk one person at a time. He kind of stalks
20 one, and then something can derail him and he thinks,
21 well, this one looks good, and that may not work out
22 and he may go back to something that he's been -- that
23 he's pursued before, and that's why he took such
24 notes.
25 Q. And as he's doing all of this trolling or stalking, as
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1 he calls it, would he be writing this information down
2 or keeping memos about it, or what does he do?
3 A. He told us he would take notes about -- especially
4 about -- he would eventually give something a name so
5 he could remember it. And that name would denote
6 somehow how he would find the place if he had to go
7 back.
8 Q. And this was all planned under his project; is that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes. Everything was a project.
11 Q. So if you were an analyst and you were working on a
12 project -- let's say a computer project or a building
13 project -- like anyone else, you would be making notes
14 and going back to this project or that, making notes,
15 doing things that would be in anticipation of
16 completion of the project; is that right?
17 A. He writes a lot.
18 Q. Did he perform these things that analytically?
19 A. Oh, yes, ma'am.
20 Q. And in his discussions with you, did he show any
21 emotion in discussing this?
22 A. I wouldn't say emotion. He wanted -- at many times he
23 stopped to make sure that he was giving us correct
24 information. He seemed to be very -- he just -- he
25 seemed to want to make sure that he was right about
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1 his time lines that he didn't miss anything.
2 Q. How was his memory?
3 A. Impressive.
4 Q. And he -- he had a good recall?
5 A. During the -- during the time we talked, he drew many
6 maps. He would take a clean sheet of paper and he
7 would draw Nancy Fox's apartment from memory.
8 Q. Did you get the impression that he had continued to
9 relive or think about this over time?
10 A. Oh, absolutely.
11 Q. And that comes up later in his conversations with you
12 as well, doesn't it?
13 A. Yes, ma'am.
14 Q. What we have here is the crime scene photo of the
15 living room of Nancy Fox's duplex, and this is as it
16 was when the officers were there on December the 8th;
17 is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And so this would be the -- the clean, neat, family
20 girl's apartment that he discussed; is that right?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. And, again, this would be a view into her bedroom
23 showing parts of her living room; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. And so this would also be part of how he described
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1 this location?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Now, as Mr. Rader continued to work about the outside
4 of the house, did he ever enter inside the house prior
5 to Ms. Fox returning home?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. What did he do once he got inside?
8 A. He went inside and just kind of familiarized himself
9 with the apartment itself. And then he went into the
10 kitchen. He got himself a drink of water, wiped the
11 glass down, and put it back up in the cabinet. And
12 then he was just in the kitchen area. And he was --
13 he was just kind of right there when Nancy came in the
14 front door.
15 Q. Would you estimate the square footage of this duplex
16 to be --
17 A. Nancy's apartment?
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. Couldn't be more than 600, 700 feet. So it was very
20 small.
21 Q. Very small?
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. And when the front door would open, you can see he
24 went right to the living room. Would the kitchen be
25 then just adjacent to that?
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1 A. As the front door, the kitchen would be just directly
2 to the right. There was a little doorway, and then
3 there was a kitchen table here. And then the kitchen
4 would go back into the refrigerator, and the cabinets
5 would be over here.
6 Q. When Mr. Rader was in that kitchen, was it at that
7 time that Nancy Fox then returned home?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then what happened?
10 A. She immediately told him to get out of his house --
11 get out of her house. And she said she was gonna --
12 you know, she was very stern about it, get out of my
13 house, I'm going to call the police.
14 Q. What happened with him?
15 A. He told her it wouldn't do any good because he had
16 already cut the phone line.
17 Q. What further discussions did they have at that time?
18 A. She just --
19 Q. I'm showing you the phone, and then the phone line
20 that's been cut; is that correct?
21 A. Yeah. She had one of those real long wires to her
22 receiver. And the phone is sitting on the ground.
23 Mr. Rader couldn't remember if he had taken that off
24 and laid it down or if it was dropped down. But he
25 was right in the process of checking that phone and
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1 making sure that it was inoperable when Nancy walked
2 through the door.
3 Q. What other further discussion?
4 A. She indicated that with everything that was going on
5 that she wanted -- first, she put her coat down, and
6 then she -- she wanted to smoke. And while sitting
7 there smoking, she wanted to get from him, what are
8 you gonna do, I mean, what's going to go on here?
9 Just in a -- not petrified, you know, but just -- she
10 wanted to find out what was gonna go on.
11 Q. What did he tell her?
12 A. He told her just like -- that he was a bad guy, that
13 he was gonna want some sex. That he might take some
14 pictures of her, and that he was gonna tie her up.
15 Q. And that's what he told you at the time of the
16 statement that he gave?
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. And then, again, he said, I have to tie you up to take
19 pictures?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what did she reply?
22 A. She indicated that -- she didn't think he had to do
23 that. She didn't think that was necessary.
24 Q. And this was all part of this discussion that she was
25 having with him. Now, he didn't indicate that she was
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1 meek and mild, did he?
2 A. Oh, no.
3 Q. What -- how did he describe her?
4 A. She was -- like I said back a while ago, she was
5 feisty. He absolutely was -- for lack of a better
6 word, he was intrigued by the fact that she wasn't
7 just petrified. She was very much standing up like,
8 what are you gonna do here, what do you want? And he
9 liked this.
10 Q. And, again, she talks to him after he says he wants
11 these naked pictures of her and says...
12 A. She tells him, you need to get out of here, you know.
13 And at this point he began to get quite stern saying,
14 no, you know, this isn't a discussion anymore, this is
15 the way it's gonna be.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Rader likes to be in control?
17 A. Absolutely.
18 Q. And what kind of -- apparently, she started to give a
19 little bit back in engaging him in control?
20 A. Yes, ma'am.
21 Q. And at this point he changed his -- his tune?
22 A. Well, he likes, as he put it, a little static, but
23 he'll take a little static.
24 Q. And did it end at this point?
25 A. Well, he -- it was -- she wanted a little bit more
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1 explanation. He indicated that, you know, that he was
2 gonna -- he was gonna rape her, and that there was
3 gonna be -- he was gonna tie her up, and that he was
4 gonna take some pictures. And she indicated how she
5 thought this was -- she thought he was sick. And he
6 indicated, yeah, I am sick, but that's the way it's
7 gonna be.
8 Q. Now, at this time we have a screen where there's some
9 questions back and forth between them. And she asked
10 him about his gloves and handcuffs, and he replied to
11 her, that's part of my deal.
12 A. This was right at the -- she was allowed to smoke a
13 cigarette. At the end of the cigarette in the living
14 room, she was like, all right, let's get this over
15 with. And she wanted to go to the bathroom. And he
16 let her go to the bathroom, but told her when she came
17 out to have the main part of her clothes off.
18 Q. Now, is there some way that he watched her so she
19 couldn't escape that bathroom?
20 A. Yes, ma'am.
21 Q. How did he do that?
22 A. He moved to the -- to the -- sat on the foot of the
23 bed. The bedroom -- because it looks right into quite
24 a small bathroom. And then he put a sock in the door
25 to make sure that she couldn't close it. And then, of
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1 course, he made her assure that she would -- that she
2 didn't have anything in there like a phone or anything
3 that she could attack him with, and that she wasn't
4 gonna go out the window or anything like that, and he
5 allowed her to go to the bathroom.
6 Q. All right. So by this time she -- you know, she said,
7 okay, let's get it over with. And when she came out
8 of the bathroom she was clothed only in a sweater?
9 A. She had a sweater, a bra, and her panties on.
10 Q. All right. And when she did, she said, this is --
11 this is ridiculous?
12 A. Well, she saw him wearing gloves. And she also saw
13 that he now had a pair of handcuffs. And she wanted
14 to know, what's this about? And that's when he
15 indicated that was part of his deal. That's what --
16 that's what made it work for him. And she was like,
17 you know, this is ridiculous. And then he said that
18 she kind of -- you know, like -- you know, well, I
19 think he used yada, yada, yada, yada, like she was
20 just talking. And he was like --
21 Q. Now, did she say yada, yada, yada?
22 A. Well, he said that she said that. But I don't know if
23 that phrase was even around back in 1977.
24 Q. All right. So he's using the words to mimic her, like
25 saying, and she did this yada, yada, yada?
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1 A. Right. This is ridiculous, you know, like, you know,
2 kept talking. And by that point, he wasn't even
3 listening anymore. And this is -- you know, she said,
4 this is a bunch of bull shit. And he's like, yeah,
5 but this is what we're gonna do.
6 Q. So those were his words to mimic her and not listen to
7 what she had to say?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Now, behind you is a photograph of evidence found at
10 the Rader home subsequent to the search warrant after
11 his arrest. Do you recognize those items?
12 A. Yes, I do, ma'am.
13 Q. What are they?
14 A. These are items inside of a little Ford Motorsports
15 bag. There's a handkerchief, a set of handcuffs, a
16 set of gloves in a bag, some twine, and that is a roll
17 of black electrical tape standing on its side.
18 Q. Do you know what Mr. Rader would call this deposited
19 group of items he had placed together in this bag?
20 A. This is called a hit kit.
21 Q. Once Mr. Rader had Ms. Fox in the bedroom, what action
22 did he take at that time?
23 A. He had her lay down on her stomach. And then he would
24 initially place a set of handcuffs on her. And then
25 he would take his belt and he would start -- he would
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1 start with the belt underneath her ankles. And he
2 kind of --
3 Q. Shimmying. Shimmying back and forth?
4 A. Kind of moving it from side to side. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. So was that a belt that he had worn around his waist?
6 A. Yes, ma'am, it was his belt.
7 Q. So in addition to other things that he might have
8 brought with him -- did he bring things with him for
9 this?
10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. What did he bring with him?
12 A. Oh, he brought two -- he brought a .22-caliber
13 semiautomatic gun. He brought a 357-magnum. He
14 brought I believe a set of brass knuckles, and I think
15 that's -- that's about it.
16 Q. And a pair of handcuffs?
17 A. Oh, yes.
18 Q. Okay. And so he also took the belt off and then
19 started to put that around her --
20 A. Ankles.
21 Q. -- ankles, and moved it up?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then what happened?
24 A. He began to think that, you know, this is really
25 exciting. And then in a very quick movement, the belt
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1 came from the ankles and it went up around her throat.
2 Q. Did he then remove any other type of clothing that she
3 had on?
4 A. Well, actually, he -- he kind of started bouncing
5 around because he kept kind of jumping to -- and then
6 he'd remember well before that happened. But he
7 initially once he had her -- once he got her on the
8 bed and got her handcuffed, he would -- he asked her
9 if she had ever had anal sex. And then she said no.
10 And then he started to -- and then he pulled down her
11 underpants. And at that time he -- that's when he
12 started at her ankles and would eventually crawl on
13 top of her.
14 Q. And at that time he indicated that he had taken some
15 of his clothing off as well?
16 A. Yes. He indicated that -- by that time, he said he
17 was pretty close to being nude himself.
18 Q. And when he had asked her if she had had anal sex --
19 anal sex with her boyfriend, she was pretty adamant
20 with him at that time -- continued to be adamant with
21 him; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. I put up a note that we're going to be showing a
24 photograph that might not be suitable for all
25 audiences. The next photograph is a photograph of
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1 Nancy Fox. Can you identify this photograph, please?
2 A. Yes, ma'am. It's one of the photographs taken at the
3 scene that day. This is depicting from north to south
4 Nancy's bed and where she was found.
5 Q. The manner in which she was found deceased?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. All right. And, of course, there's other clothing and
8 items that are on the bed as well. Is that a drawer
9 that was taken from her dresser?
10 A. Yeah, there's a dresser -- the dresser will be to the
11 west side, and one of the drawers will be missing.
12 There's most of the contents of the dresser. There's
13 a purple pillow right above her dresser drawer. And
14 right above her head is an aqua or a light blue
15 nightgown. And then down here is the contents of that
16 drawer.
17 Q. You indicated that Mr. Rader had used his own belt.
18 Was that a leather belt?
19 A. I believe so.
20 Q. And that he would slowly put the belt -- move the belt
21 from side to side or shimmy it up her from her ankles
22 and finally got it to a point at her neck. And what
23 did he do when he got it to her neck?
24 A. At first he -- he would -- he would demonstrate how he
25 would hold his hand over the buckle, and he would pull
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1 the loose part of the belt tight at that time.
2 Q. And how many times would he do that?
3 A. He ended up having to do it a couple of times.
4 Q. And was there an intention of doing it once and then
5 releasing?
6 A. Well, he -- he -- he almost made it sound like it was
7 almost unintentional, but he certainly had a plan for
8 when she came out of it the first time. Because he
9 choked her once -- or he was choking her, and then he
10 was going to replace the belt with panty hose. And
11 during that time of taking the belt, she came back.
12 Q. Meaning that he had choked her to the extent that she
13 lost consciousness?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. And then when the belt was released, she was able to
16 get enough oxygen to recover?
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. And then what did he do?
19 A. At that time when she came back, he saw that as an
20 opportunity. And at that time he whispered in her ear
21 and he told her that he was BTK. He said that he was
22 a really bad guy.
23 Q. And then what happened?
24 A. He said at that time she started to squirm, and that's
25 when he really -- and, again, he would demonstrate
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1 because he had to hold the buckle down with one hand,
2 and then he would -- at that time he would demonstrate
3 that he would really have to pull on the belt at that
4 point.
5 Q. When he was demonstrating to you the method of her
6 execution, did he have or display any emotion?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, how did he act?
9 A. Like he was demonstrating a project.
10 Q. When he told you that he whispered in her ear, did he
11 explain why he wanted to tell her who he was?
12 A. That was because he knew that -- that that was his
13 form of torture. Because he would -- you knew that
14 she -- he wasn't sure whether she would make the
15 connection, but if she did make the connection, it
16 would be very clear to her that now she was -- not
17 only was she being choked, but she was going to be
18 killed.
19 Q. Was there some other -- some other things that he was
20 talking about the boogie man, I'm the boogie man, and
21 I'm BTK, and it just seems like there was more
22 statements he made with regard to what he whispered in
23 her ear?
24 A. Yes, he does -- he does elaborate that he -- that he
25 was BTK, that he was -- you know, that he was a bad
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1 man. And he also does indicate that this was like --
2 like back in the movies. When people would realize
3 the boogie man had you. And now she was realizing
4 that the boogie man had her, and she wasn't getting
5 away. And this was his form of torture was that she
6 would not only be choked, but she would know as she
7 was being choked that she was being killed by BTK.
8 Q. And this is that -- again, this is what you were
9 talking about that he loosened it up again, she came
10 back, and then I whispered in her ear -- and he didn't
11 know if she made the connection -- but she wasn't
12 happy, and then he yanked it up tight and took her on?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Another photo. This would be an autopsy photo of
15 Nancy Fox. Now, we've blocked the eyes on this, but
16 can you identify the strangulation marks?
17 A. She has one -- she has a ligature mark right here.
18 And the ligature mark appears to go into a larger mark
19 right here. But there are what appears to be a series
20 of ligature marks.
21 Q. Now, these other dark marks we see here are lividity
22 or blood settling in the body, --
23 A. Right.
24 Q. -- but there's also marks that come across her mouth
25 and that would have been from the gag; is that
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1 correct?
2 A. The gag and probably from a certain amount of purging,
3 also.
4 Q. All right. Now, again, Mr. Rader's words about Nancy
5 Fox's last moments. If you'd turn toward the screen.
6 A. Yes, ma'am. Well, this was -- like I said, this was
7 some of the comments that she made to him that she was
8 going to call the police, and that he was sick. But
9 those are just kind of some of the things that she
10 said. Like I said, he was very -- this case holds a
11 very special place for him, because he had complete
12 control. And, in fact, he termed this as one of his
13 more enjoyable kills.
14 Q. One of his more enjoyable kills as he calls them?
15 A. Yes, ma'am.
16 Q. Did he -- we note here that at a point in time in
17 attempting to ward off Dennis Rader that Nancy Fox did
18 take some action. Can you tell us about that?
19 A. Well, we first became aware of in -- there was a
20 communication sent that was found at Murdock Park.
21 And in that communication there was a letter about the
22 death of Nancy Fox. And in that letter there was a
23 mention that during her struggle, that she managed to
24 get ahold of his nuts. And at that point -- and so we
25 asked him -- you know, because he had gone over her
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1 death, but he had kind of left that out. And so we
2 asked him, you know, was there a point that she got --
3 that she had ahold of you. And he said, yeah, that he
4 was strangling her and she did grab his nuts, and that
5 she was squeezing very -- pretty hard, but that
6 actually made it more exciting for him. He indicated
7 that she had -- she had ahold of him pretty good. And
8 she fought him up, but that made it more exciting for
9 him, and that's when he pulled the belt very tight.
10 Q. He didn't receive any permanent damage as a result of
11 that, did he?
12 A. I'm unaware of any.
13 Q. Again, some additional photographs from the crime
14 screen concerning Nancy Fox. Can you identify this
15 photo?
16 A. This is a photograph of -- taken from above her body.
17 This is showing the final bindings that were put
18 around her wrist, which turned out to be a pair of red
19 panty hose.
20 Q. And her legs also bound at the ankles?
21 A. She was eventually bound at the ankles with the yellow
22 night rope.
23 Q. Now, the color before was red and now this is yellow.
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. It seems that it shows instead of panty hose some
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1 colored items; is that right?
2 A. Well, everything on her is a different color, I can
3 tell you that.
4 Q. Yeah. Did Mr. Rader have sexual intercourse with
5 Nancy Fox?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What happened?
8 A. He indicated that while -- while she was -- while he
9 had just killed her, that he was on a high. That he
10 took what he thought was a nighty, and that he
11 masturbated on it and that he left it right there.
12 MS. FOULSTON: May I approach, your Honor?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 Q. (By Ms. Foulston) Do you have your gloves?
15 Earlier in one of the slides that we looked at,
16 you pointed out a -- kind of a sea foam or blue nighty
17 that was laying at the top of the bed where Nancy Fox
18 was found.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And I'm going to hand you what has been marked for
21 identification purposes as State's Exhibit No. 19 and
22 ask that you remove it from his packing. You know, I
23 noted on here that it indicates that this was to be
24 placed in the freezer.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Can you tell me why?
2 A. This type of biological specimen is usually kept at
3 temperatures that are consistent with a freezer.
4 Q. Does that look familiar to you?
5 A. Yes, ma'am. It has the initials of Lab Investigator
6 Eggleston, when it was taken into custody on December
7 the 9th of 1977, and also contains the initials of
8 people that have tested -- tested the gown for genetic
9 material.
10 Q. Okay. Would you hold that up so we can see some of
11 the -- there are a number of holes that are cut in
12 this nightgown both front and back.
13 A. Yes, ma'am.
14 Q. And would that be for the sampling of genetic
15 material?
16 A. Yes, ma'am.
17 Q. Okay. Go ahead and put that back in.
18 MS. FOULSTON: Counsel, did you wish to see
19 this item?
20 MS. MCKINNON: No.
21 MS. FOULSTON: The State seeks to introduce
22 State's Exhibit No. 19.
23 MS. MCKINNON: No objection, your Honor.
24 MS. FOULSTON: Thank you.
25 THE COURT: Exhibit 19 will be admitted.
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1 Q. (By Ms. Foulston) And, you know, Detective, that
2 Nancy Fox's nightgown was later tested for biological
3 evidence later during the course of the investigation?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. Okay. Earlier, we looked at information -- or pieces
6 of clothing, and this I guess is a close-up of the
7 items that were on her bed. Would you agree with
8 that?
9 A. These are the items at the base of the bed from the
10 drawer.
11 Q. Right.
12 A. The purple pillow, and the nightgown.
13 Q. So Mr. Rader also tried to ravage through the clothing
14 in the room?
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. Do you know if he took any other items from her home?
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. What did he take?
19 A. He indicated that, first, he wanted to let me know
20 that he had taken that -- what he called that infamous
21 jewelry that we had made an attempt to identify during
22 the investigation in 2004. That he took some other
23 jewelry. That he took some night slips and some
24 underpants, and that he took those items from the
25 house.
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1 Q. Now, what does Mr. Rader want with slips and
2 underpants?
3 A. He indicated that he did sexual things with those
4 things later.
5 Q. Like what?
6 A. What he would do with them?
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. Well, from viewing some of his property, it appears
9 that he would wear them. It appears that he would
10 display them and take pictures of all kinds of women's
11 apparel.
12 Q. How big was Nancy Fox?
13 A. Five-foot five, 120 pounds.
14 Q. I'm going to be showing another photograph from the
15 crime scene. Nancy Fox. And this is the photograph
16 from what would be the east side of that wall of her
17 bedroom.
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. Correct?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. And that would be showing her dresser from that --
22 where the drawer was taken out; is that correct?
23 A. No, actually, this is the drawer on the other wall.
24 Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
25 A. The previous picture had the drawer that was missing.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. This was showing where her jewelry was and some of her
3 jewelry boxes and a photograph.
4 Q. Okay. And then this has been gone through, and this
5 one has been gone through?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. You inquired of Mr. Rader how it was that she was
8 terrorized. What did he tell you?
9 A. He indicated that -- again, that you could -- he
10 wanted us to visualize that you're tied up, that
11 knowing that something is going to happen to you, that
12 that was his form of torture. He indicated that this
13 would -- that, in later years, he would try to
14 elaborate to -- that he didn't have torture chambers,
15 but that he would eventually fantasize about them.
16 And he indicated to us that we would find drawings and
17 other things that he was not only fantasized about but
18 was working toward.
19 Q. So that -- he said that, you know, all what he did in
20 bringing them back and suffocating them and bringing
21 them back, all of this the torture part, in addition
22 to all of the other components of his activities prior
23 to death; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. And did he say that the knowledge of these individuals
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1 pending death was the torture as well?
2 A. Oh, yes, ma'am.
3 Q. And was that something he enjoyed?
4 A. He certainly wanted them to know that you were being
5 killed by BTK.
6 Q. What caused him to get sexually excited?
7 A. It was usually the -- very visual. It was usually the
8 accomplishment of the event, not during the event
9 itself.
10 Q. So at the point when the victim was expiring or has
11 expired that he would then masturbate or ejaculate and
12 that was the -- the end of the episode for him?
13 A. Yes, ma'am. Almost all sexual excitement came either
14 at death or after death.
15 Q. Now, you talked about some torture devices.
16 A. Yes, ma'am.
17 Q. What have we here?
18 A. In going through a lot of the information that was
19 taken in through the search warrants, through kind of
20 a big green tub of material, and a big drawer called
21 the mother lode.
22 Q. Now, wait a minute. Who called it the mother lode?
23 A. Mr. Rader.
24 Q. All right. So that's his name for all his things?
25 A. That's the name for -- there was one drawer that had a
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1 lot of -- a lot of stuff, a lot of things that were
2 like scribblings and stuff like that. But the mother
3 lode was the information that was about the specific
4 cases, and it was -- you know, that was the real meat
5 of who he was was the mother lode.
6 Q. All right. And so inside the mother lode, in addition
7 to a number of other things -- I mean, we're talking a
8 lot of things, aren't we?
9 A. We're talking a -- volumes of paper.
10 Q. All right. These are just but two drawings?
11 A. These are but two, yes, ma'am.
12 Q. Are there more?
13 A. There are many, many, many more.
14 Q. How many more?
15 A. I -- I never stopped to count, because I -- it would
16 be -- I know we scanned for -- we scanned them in for
17 -- four of us scanned them in for many, many days.
18 Q. All right. Now, these are his visions of torture
19 devices, and these are his drawings; is that right?
20 A. Yes, ma'am.
21 Q. Okay. So this is what he was talking about that he
22 liked to create these?
23 A. This was -- this was a sealed chamber with a heat
24 control on the side. He would -- this here explains
25 it. It would either be filled with water, but he
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1 would turn the -- or not filled with, but it would
2 just be partially filled. And he would use the heat
3 to make a person -- to make this person sweat to where
4 the fluid would accumulate over two to three days so
5 that there would be a slow death. And then eventually
6 this person would succumb to the fluid in the sweat
7 tube.
8 Q. They would sweat and urinate?
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. And so the sweat and the urine is all in there?
11 A. He would control the temperature of them with the heat
12 control making them sweat more.
13 Q. And he thought that one up by himself?
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. What about the other one?
16 A. This is a -- he had a thing about barns and silos.
17 And this is the interior of a silo that he was going
18 to turn into a torture chamber.
19 Q. Kind of a wheel of torture?
20 A. No, it's kind of a round circle of a silo. This is a
21 top view of a silo. He's got the floors, things like
22 this, you know, how he's going to arrange this door
23 here. He's got the floor plan. It's pretty -- pretty
24 detailed, actually. But he's going to make this --
25 you know, this whole torture area is going to be barns
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1 and silos and all kinds of stuff.
2 Q. Okay. And so these are just two examples of the many,
3 many others that you might have?
4 A. Many.
5 Q. Many. Okay.
6 All right. And then more explanation?
7 A. Yeah. As we talked about it, he -- he said, yeah --
8 which we talked about bringing people back and talking
9 to them, he became more and more, yeah, that would be
10 -- that would be torture, just to let people know that
11 you're the boogie man, and that he's he got you, and
12 that there's just nothing you can do about it and that
13 it's over.
14 Q. Now, Agent Pritchett asked him about the phone call
15 from the Organ Market. And this is the picture of the
16 Organ Market as it existed back in 1977; is that
17 right?
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. And then he discusses that it might not have been a
20 good idea for him to have done that?
21 A. Well, he indicated that he -- there wasn't anything in
22 the paper. He wasn't hearing anything on the radio.
23 And that he was kind of getting antsy. And he thought
24 they might find it in two or three days when she
25 didn't show up for work or something, but he wanted to
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1 get something going right that next morning.
2 Q. Okay. And that he thinks it might have been a bold
3 move?
4 A. Oh, absolutely. He still indicated that the next
5 morning that he was still on what he called a high,
6 and he was -- you know, he realized it was a little
7 late to make the paper, but he still thought he should
8 have heard something on the radio or something like
9 that. But in what he called a bold and a -- kind of a
10 reckless mode -- a reckless move that he was from one
11 work location to the next. He was driving by this
12 phone, and he just -- he just got the idea, I think
13 I'll just call them.
14 Q. There's something about the media that excites him,
15 isn't there?
16 A. Oh, absolutely.
17 Q. I've got the next slide up. Tell us about that.
18 A. He indicated that he wanted to get something going.
19 That he got quite a bit of excitement out of reading
20 about himself. That he tied that into the current
21 situation that he was on a media frenzy. When they
22 sat there and talk about you on TV and you know it's
23 you and no one else does, that's high stuff. And he's
24 always paid extremely close attention to the media.
25 He indicated that he said that it is -- it is -- he
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1 compared it to a drug, and he said that it is
2 intoxicating.
3 Q. He also collected stories about himself or, actually,
4 about the suspect who was killing people?
5 A. Oh, yes, ma'am.
6 Q. Now, he did some communications with law enforcement
7 about the Nancy Fox case; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And during those, he also sent in to KAKE-TV a drawing
10 that he had done about the Nancy Fox killing, and that
11 was received back in 1978. And we have a comparison
12 view I'm going to show here with the photograph and
13 with the drawing that he made.
14 A. Yes, ma'am.
15 Q. And this is the drawing that was received by KAKE, and
16 that is the scene photograph?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Now, did you show this drawing to Mr. Rader?
19 A. During the -- during the -- after we had finished up
20 talking about the cases, during the next day, on that
21 Saturday, after they had talked -- finished with the
22 actual homicides themselves, myself and Agent
23 Pritchett went back in and started with the very first
24 communication from October of 1974 and went through
25 every communication up to February of this year. And
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1 there was a time -- and we would go over each
2 communication and ask him where he typed it, you know,
3 and what did he -- what was he trying to accomplish,
4 where he mailed it. And he would tell us as much as
5 he could remember about specific communications.
6 Q. Now, this one particular one, the drawing of Nancy Fox
7 that looks like a very, very close almost photographic
8 compared to the scene photograph, did you put that on
9 the table in front of Dennis Rader?
10 A. Yes, ma'am, every communication was taken from --
11 because I had a folder, I had a copy of everything,
12 and every communication was placed in front so we
13 could make sure we were talking about that specific
14 communication. And during the time of presented with
15 this picture of Nancy Fox of the letter -- of the
16 picture that he had sent in in reference to the crime
17 scene of Nancy Fox, he indicated to me that he was
18 sorry, but that he was getting a hard-on looking at
19 the picture.
20 Q. And what did you do?
21 A. I took the picture away.
22 Q. There was also some poetry that he wrote and
23 delivered, some music, and even some dolls --
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. -- that he dressed up in whatever method --
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1 A. This is --
2 Q. -- that closely resembled the victim of the crime with
3 some memorabilia -- or murderabilia, as you might call
4 it?
5 A. This is a -- this is what he would term as the
6 doll-o-gram. This was the package that was left in
7 Murdock Park in December of 2004.
8 Q. And this came complete with Nancy Fox's driver's
9 license?
10 A. Her driver's license, the doll was bound in matching
11 -- it had yellow tape on its ankles. It had red tape
12 on its hands. It had a shirt with no pants. And on
13 the ankle was tied the original and the driver's
14 license of Nancy Fox.
15 Q. As displayed in the photograph I've just placed?
16 A. Yes, ma'am.
17 Q. And you asked, what was the thought behind sending the
18 driver's license?
19 A. This evidence, like all the rest, there was a plan to
20 dispose of all evidence. And he knew that he either
21 had to get rid of it or throw it away. And since he
22 was gonna think about throwing it away anyway, he just
23 thought he would stir the pot and get a little bit
24 more mileage out of it since he was going to get rid
25 of it anyway.
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1 Q. There were other writings, including this, Oh Death to
2 Nancy Poem?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. Other items. Again, this one is a little up closer?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Other drawings?
7 A. That's a copy of the actual drawings with her driver's
8 license also copied onto that piece of paper. He had
9 photographs of the doll, and these had to be taken, of
10 course, prior to delivery, because we didn't take any
11 pictures of the doll like this. But this is the doll
12 before it was bound and placed in the bag and left in
13 Murdock Park.
14 Q. It seemed to have been his -- part of his plan that he
15 would photograph or copy his own communications and
16 keep those in his mother lode before he would send
17 them out. So he had duplicates of everything he would
18 send out; is that right?
19 A. It would absolutely be his undoing, yes.
20 Q. And so everything he sent out, he had duplicates of?
21 A. Yes, ma'am.
22 Q. Or the originals?
23 A. He did not have -- well, he --
24 Q. Either he had an original or a duplicate of whatever
25 he sent out?
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1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. And then like these pictures, these were taken prior
3 to the time that he would send the package out, he
4 would photograph what -- he kept records of everything
5 that he was sending out?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. All right. And these are those photographs that he
8 took of this doll before he delivered it out?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. All right. That's his standard operating procedure on
11 projects?
12 A. He keeps track of a lot of stuff, that's true.
13 Q. He also purchased additional dolls for future
14 communications; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, he was in the -- he was in the process of
16 preparing what he termed was the Vian drop. He was
17 going to make a doll, put her in a little coffin or a
18 little box. He was gonna put some wires through it
19 and make it look like a bomb. And he was gonna place
20 it along I-35 because he was -- he liked the fact that
21 everyone had figured out that he was using I-35.
22 Q. And this would have been the newly purchased -- these
23 are not -- these are replica dolls, not the official
24 kind of Barbie dolls. These are just cheapy dolls?
25 A. They ain't Barbies.
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1 Q. They're not what?
2 A. They're not Barbies.
3 Q. They're not -- you'd know that, wouldn't you?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. They're not Barbies. There had been some computer
6 writings describing Nancy Fox, and where did this PJ
7 Fox Tail, this is just another project name for her?
8 A. Yeah. This was actually taken from in the letter that
9 was sent to Murdock Park. There was -- along with the
10 doll there were two computer generated -- actually,
11 they were reduced down, but there were two
12 computer-generated pages and those had the story. And
13 then in that instance, he called it the PJ Fox Tail,
14 and then he gave a two-page description of --
15 Q. That would be chapter nine of his hits?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. PJ Fox Tail there, and a page two that goes along with
18 it?
19 A. Yes, and he included his reference code number and
20 some other things.
21 Q. Detective, were you aware that if -- when he died,
22 that Mr. Rader had a plan for his future called his
23 afterlife concept?
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. And did you know that he was going to -- like the, I
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1 guess the Pharaohs of Old, how they would utilize
2 people in their afterlife?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. And did you know that he conceptualized an afterlife
5 duty for Nancy Fox?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And did you know what Nancy was going to be in the
8 afterlife?
9 A. She was going to be his primary mistress.
10 Q. And, according to Mr. Rader, if you'd turn around and
11 look from his writings.
12 A. She will obey my bondage commands -- conditions, I'm
13 sorry.
14 MS. FOULSTON: I have no further questions
15 for Detective Relph.
16 THE COURT: Cross?
17 MS. MCKINNON: No questions, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. May this witness be
19 excused?
20 MS. FOULSTON: By the State.
21 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You're excused.
22 The State may call their next witness.
23 THOMAS E. LEE,
24 called as a witness, on behalf of the State, after having
25 been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. PARKER:
3 Q. Could you please tell us your name?
4 A. Thomas E. Lee.
5 Q. And you are a Sergeant with the police department --
6 or with the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Department?
7 A. Yes, ma'am, I am.
8 Q. We have your name behind you.
9 A. They left out my middle initial.
10 Q. How long have you worked for them?
11 A. For the Sheriff's Office, 20 years. Still employed.
12 Q. Um, you have recently had the occasion to be involved
13 in reviewing with Rader, Dennis Rader, the matter of
14 the death of Marine Hedge; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
16 Q. All right. And how did you come to be involved in
17 this case?
18 A. It was assigned to me when I was a detective in 1991.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. And I've been working on it since then. And I was
21 contacted in the latter part of February, 2005.
22 Q. Okay. So you were not originally involved in this
23 case; is that correct?
24 A. No. No, ma'am, I was not.
25 Q. But as a part of being involved and being assigned to
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1 it, did you have an opportunity to review the body of
2 the case that was collected when her body was
3 originally discovered?
4 A. Yes, ma'am, I have.
5 Q. Now, originally, it was not clear when Ms. Hedge had
6 died; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Because she originally was an individual who was
9 reported as missing?
10 A. Yes. On April 27th, her son-in-law reported her
11 missing of 1985.
12 Q. And she was not found for some time; is that correct?
13 A. It was approximately 10 days or so later.
14 Q. And that was the time period when her body was
15 actually found in the county?
16 A. Yes, ma'am, it was.
17 Q. Did she live in the county?
18 A. No, ma'am. She lived in Park City.
19 Q. And they would normally have a law enforcement
20 division that works independently of the Sheriff's
21 Department; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, ma'am, that is correct.
23 Q. Although their jurisdiction is actually inside
24 Sedgwick County?
25 A. Yes, ma'am.
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1 Q. Do you know when the Sheriff's Department actually
2 became involved in investigating the matter of Marine
3 Hedge?
4 A. I believe it was on the 5th of May --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- of 1985.
7 Q. The day her body was discovered?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. And why was the sheriff involved in that?
10 A. We were requested assistance by Park City Police
11 Department.
12 Q. Okay. Now, there's a screen behind you. Are you
13 aware of how old Marine Hedge was at the time she
14 disappeared?
15 A. Yes, ma'am. She was 53 years old.
16 Q. All right. In the photo, does that accurately depict
17 -- in a photo given to us by her family -- of how she
18 appeared?
19 A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
20 Q. Do you have any idea how -- what her size?
21 A. Yeah, she's five-foot two, weighed a hundred pounds.
22 Q. So a very small woman?
23 A. Very small lady.
24 Q. Did you have the occasion to learn from the BTK Task
25 Force that was working on this matter that they needed
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1 your assistance in interviewing Rader about the
2 details of the murder of Marine Hedge?
3 A. Yes, ma'am, it was -- I was contacted.
4 Q. And you became aware of that on the day that he was
5 arrested; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, ma'am, I was.
7 Q. And so what did you do in response to that?
8 A. I went over to the FBI office at the Epic Center. I,
9 along with Special Agent Chuck Pritchett of the FBI,
10 interviewed Mr. Rader.
11 Q. And as you were going into that interview, you had
12 some familiarity with the things that your department,
13 the Sheriff's Department, and the Park City Police had
14 learned about her disappearance and the discovery of
15 her body?
16 A. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.
17 Q. So you had acquainted yourself with the investigation,
18 witnesses that had been interviewed, the results of
19 the autopsy, et cetera?
20 A. Yes, ma'am.
21 Q. And you took that information in with you to
22 interrogate Rader?
23 A. Yes, ma'am.
24 Q. Let's talk briefly about what's on the screen. Others
25 have indicated that he referred to his individual
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1 victims as projects. Did he have a name for Marine
2 Hedge?
3 A. Yes. Marine Hedge was nick-named Project Cookie.
4 Q. Now, you were aware, as part of the investigation,
5 where Marine lived; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. All right. And where did she live?
8 A. At 6254 Independence in Park City, Kansas.
9 Q. All right. And you are now aware of where Rader lived
10 in Park City, Kansas; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, ma'am.
12 Q. All right. And where was that?
13 A. 6220 Independence, which would be south of her
14 location -- or residence.
15 Q. Did he talk to you about the fact that he lived on the
16 same street?
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. What did he tell you?
19 A. He did know who she was, not her full name. He knew
20 her as -- probably first name basis. And he on
21 occasion had waved to her as being neighbors.
22 Q. Okay. Did he have -- did he indicate to you whether
23 he had watched her actions?
24 A. Yes, he knew when she returned home at night, because
25 he had observed her.
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1 Q. I'm going to show a screen that shows the family of
2 Marine Hedge. Do you recognize that to be a family
3 picture?
4 A. Yes, ma'am, I do.
5 Q. And she's in the center of that picture?
6 A. She is in the middle.
7 Q. All right. Thank you.
8 There's a screen behind you that the pointer --
9 laser pointer is right beside you, Sergeant. Can you
10 point out what's depicted here?
11 A. This is where Dennis Rader lives, his residence.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. Marine Hedge's residence at that time.
14 Q. Can you point out Independence Street, please?
15 A. Independence Street is here. It goes from Kechi Road,
16 which is just off of 61st, and goes north and then
17 curves to the west.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you.
19 So she was, literally, just up the street?
20 A. Just up the street from his.
21 Q. Now, in addition to telling you that, you know, he had
22 waved to her as a neighbor, had he done some
23 additional trolling, if you will, or stalking of
24 Marine Hedge?
25 A. Yes. He advised me that he knew she worked at a
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1 cafeteria -- or at Wesley Hospital in which she worked
2 at a coffee shop. She worked from 2:00 p.m. to
3 midnight.
4 Q. In fact, he indicated that he had actually been there
5 and seen her; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, ma'am, that's true.
7 Q. Now, did he describe to you kind of his anticipation
8 of this and planning of this matter?
9 A. He stated to me that if he could really pull it off up
10 there right by his house, it would really be a biggie.
11 Q. Like it was some additional thrill if he could get
12 this done?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, in his home, was he living there with his family?
15 A. Yes, ma'am, he was.
16 Q. And this would be a picture of that home, 6220
17 Independence, Park City, Kansas where Dennis Rader
18 lived with his wife and children?
19 A. Yes, ma'am, that is his house.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 And the next screen, 6254 North Independence, Park
22 City, Kansas, is that the home of Marine Hedge?
23 A. Yes, that is her residence.
24 Q. Now, that particular photo was taken more recently; is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes, that was taken this year.
2 Q. Because a photograph had not been originally taken of
3 her home at the time of her disappearance?
4 A. There was a photograph taken, but it didn't turn out.
5 Q. Depict this?
6 A. Yeah, it was overexposed.
7 Q. And that may not be unusual when law enforcement
8 begins first investigating just a disappearance
9 because you don't know if there's something criminal
10 involved?
11 A. Yes, ma'am, that's true.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 Now, he went on to describe further for you, kind
14 of how he felt about this high, if you will, or this
15 biggie of being able to knock off his neighbor; is
16 that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Tell us what he told you.
19 A. He told me it was really bad for a guy to knock one of
20 the neighbors off. It's not good for a serial killer,
21 because you don't want to kill in your own habitat.
22 It's not a good sign. It's not good serial
23 business -- serial killer business.
24 Q. And so as if he were tracking, what would be good
25 serial killer business?
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1 A. Away from his residence.
2 Q. All right. And that back door that he could look out
3 to see Marine Hedge, this is a picture of the back
4 door of the Rader home?
5 A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
6 Q. Rader, did he begin describing for you what had taken
7 place?
8 A. He advised me that this was probably one of his most
9 complicated hits.
10 Q. And what did he express to you that meant?
11 A. He meant by -- because I asked him what he meant. And
12 he advised that he used a taxi and had a lot of
13 maneuvering to do to accomplish this task.
14 Q. All right. In fact, in the investigation of this
15 case, there was a situation that had occurred -- she
16 had disappeared, and then her car was later
17 discovered?
18 A. Yes. Her car was located at 21st and Woodlawn at
19 Brittany Square parking lot.
20 Q. And so the investigation was focused on trying to
21 figure out how her car got up there; is that right?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. And so in discussing the facts of this case with
24 Rader, did he explain to you how that happened?
25 A. Yes. He advised how the car --
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1 Q. Could you --
2 A. -- was placed there.
3 Q. All right. Could you explain to us how that did
4 happen?
5 A. He basically advised that he -- his plan was, he went
6 to the bowling alley at that location -- well, he went
7 scouting first, and then he used the ruse of having a
8 headache. And he went to bed early, and he had parked
9 his car up on a hill. And then about 8:30 or so at
10 night he left, went to Andover, and changed out his
11 scouting uniform, put his darker hit clothes on, went
12 over, parked his vehicle near the bowling alley, went
13 into the bar and obtained a beer. He drank some of
14 the beer and poured some of it on his clothes. He
15 called for a taxi to come and get him. And then when
16 the taxi arrived, had the taxi transport him near his
17 residence, acting like he was intoxicated, not able to
18 drive and so forth.
19 As he got near his residence, he had the taxi
20 driver drop him off. He wanted to walk it off before
21 he got home. After the taxi left, and then he went
22 through the park area to her residence.
23 Q. Okay. Now, I believe at the time that Rader described
24 his actions, he said he had another commitment. Do
25 you -- he was referring to that his commitment was a
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1 Boy Scout event?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In fact, in the interview -- a Cub Scout event, excuse
4 me. In the interview he told you where he was; is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes, he was at TaWaKoNi, camp TaWaKoNi.
7 Q. And he called it a cubby thing?
8 A. Yes, Cub Scouts.
9 Q. And so the opportunity came up, he was out there with
10 the Cub Scouts, and he decided to kill Marine Hedge?
11 A. Yes, the opportunity was there, and that's when he
12 decided to do it.
13 Q. All right. Now, he further describes that -- there is
14 a screen behind you -- that, basically, in his words,
15 he describes why he uses the cover, if you will, of
16 the Cub Scouts. Could you explain that to us?
17 A. Yes, he advised it's good cover for a guy like him to
18 go out and camp and slip away at night when everybody
19 goes to bed. Park somewhere else and leave.
20 Q. Now, when -- there were search warrants executed at
21 Rader's home, and there are photographs behind you
22 that were seized at that time indicating that he's in
23 Boy Scout uniform; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And in the course of these interviews, he indicated
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1 numerous times that he had involvement -- a constant
2 involvement, essentially, with the Boy Scouts?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 And, as you earlier described, how he got out of
6 the cub thing was to say, oh, I've got a headache?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. And then drove to Andover. And once he got to
9 Andover, the -- he had to get into his hit clothes.
10 Now, why did he have to get in the hit clothes?
11 A. His hit clothes were darker. Being nighttime, it's
12 harder to see. They're also more maneuverable.
13 Q. Than the scout?
14 A. Than the scout clothes.
15 Q. Now, the park that he had the taxi driver drop him off
16 in, where is that located?
17 A. That's a little behind Marine Hedge's residence.
18 Q. And it's also kind of behind his residence?
19 A. Yes, ma'am.
20 Q. And we'll have a map here in a minute, so we can look
21 at it. But when he described that he already knew
22 this park because of its location, he also told you --
23 or mentioned to you that he had gone his pathway; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes. He had crossed his in-laws' residence, their
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1 backyard.
2 Q. And so by in-laws, he means his wife's parents' yard?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. On his way --
5 A. To her house.
6 Q. -- of the killing of Marine Hedge?
7 A. Yes, ma'am.
8 Q. All right. That map is there behind you now. There's
9 the pointer. If you'll point out -- that's the same
10 map, essentially, we're looking at with an additional
11 point to show where the park is; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And it's kind of a -- it's a very, very small park.
14 A. Very small.
15 Q. And very narrow. Can you show us, I believe he
16 indicated that he got off at West Parkview Street.
17 Can you -- it's on the other side. Can you show that?
18 A. Yes, West Parkview is right here.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you.
20 And this photograph would indicate from his
21 backyard, a photograph that was taken at the time of
22 the search warrants were executed in a direction kind
23 of where the park is. It's not that good of a
24 photograph, but it does give you a directional view
25 from that?
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1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 Now, in speaking with him, he described how he got
4 in and the manner in which he entered her home?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. In the original investigation, one of the things that
7 was originally disturbing, although she was reported
8 as disappearing, was that her phone lines were cut.
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. All right. And that was noted as part of the
11 investigation, and you knew that going in?
12 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
13 Q. What did he describe about how he got into to the
14 home?
15 A. He advised that he snuck up onto the back of her
16 house, cut the phone lines with a pair of wire
17 cutters. Took him a long time to get to the house.
18 Saw her car was in the car port. Didn't really think
19 she was going to be there. And when he found out her
20 car was there, he went into his cat burglar mode. And
21 then when he got to -- finally got to the rear door,
22 he used a long screwdriver to pop the door to get in.
23 Q. So in this description, he describes himself as a cat
24 burglar?
25 A. Yes, ma'am.
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1 Q. And then when she wasn't there, he thought, oh, shoot.
2 Is that how he described it?
3 A. Yes, ma'am, that is.
4 Q. And this is an original crime scene photograph that
5 was taken to note that cut line. Thank you.
6 A. Yes, ma'am, it is.
7 Q. And then, of course, he said he went through her back
8 door. Is this also an original crime scene photograph
9 of that back door?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Now, on that screen -- just a second. I'm sorry.
12 There was some effort to determine whether or not
13 there had been forced entry in that home?
14 A. Yes, ma'am, there was, but the door was very old.
15 Q. And it was hard to tell?
16 A. Yes, it was hard to tell whether there was any new
17 damage.
18 Q. Once he got inside, he also told you some additional
19 things about his thoughts, about what was going on,
20 and then what happened to cause him a concern?
21 A. He advised that when he entered the house, he
22 basically crept around through the house because he
23 thought she was still there. And after searching the
24 house and found that she wasn't, and, again, he said,
25 oh, shoot, and then he heard a car door slam outside
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1 and heard two voices -- one a male voice -- in which
2 they were coming to the house. He then went into one
3 of the bedroom closets and hid. He basically advised
4 me that he did not want to confront another male and
5 have another Bright incident.
6 Q. Okay. And we've heard that discussed by other
7 officers here. So he waits in the closet?
8 A. He waited in the closet, he advised me, for quite a
9 while.
10 Q. All right. And until she went to sleep. And then he
11 indicated to you he jumped on her?
12 A. He advised that he waited in the closet for quite a
13 while. He heard the male leave. He waited a little
14 while longer, crept to the bathroom, turned the light
15 on, saw that she was laying in the bed, and
16 immediately jumped on her.
17 Q. Okay. And he also indicated he puts his hands on her
18 mouth?
19 A. Yeah. She started to scream, and then he put his hand
20 over her mouth and started to throttle her, as he
21 called it.
22 Q. Now, he also indicates he had some desires that had
23 been similarly expressed with other victims that he
24 wanted to tie her up and take pictures; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Now, this is a crime scene photograph of her bed
2 without bedding. Is that the condition that her bed
3 was found in when it was first originally noticed by
4 her son-in-law, Rod Hook; is that correct?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. That she was gone. He was the one that made the
7 original report?
8 A. Yes, she was gone, and the bedding was gone.
9 Q. All right. And that was reported as unusual?
10 A. Yes, ma'am.
11 Q. All right. Now, he described -- he continues to
12 describe to you, also, some conversation again about
13 how -- which is -- or things that we have not yet
14 heard?
15 A. Yeah. He advised me that she stated, what in the hell
16 is going on? And he just yada, yada, yada kind of.
17 Told me that he thought she thought she was going to
18 be raped or something. He got her under control. She
19 tried to fight, and he just was right on top of her,
20 and advised there was no way. She was small. And
21 he's a lot larger than she was.
22 Q. And so he indicates that she's kind of yada, yada,
23 yada, that he knew that she thought she was going to
24 be raped?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And, in fact, as you said, she was a smaller lady, and
2 she wouldn't have been able to compare -- or be able
3 to protect herself very well from Rader?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Go ahead.
6 Now, he used, as you've already said, the word
7 throttled her until he got control, and then he
8 handcuffed her and finished her off; is that right?
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. When he said throttled her, did he describe that for
11 us?
12 A. Yes, ma'am. I asked him what he meant, and he
13 demonstrated that he choked her with his hands.
14 Q. All right. Did he stand up to do that?
15 A. Yes, ma'am, he did.
16 Q. Did he walk around and describe this to you?
17 A. No, he just stood up in front of me and showed me how
18 he did it.
19 Q. Now, he also said something with -- that he may have
20 also used another instrument in addition to that.
21 A. He advised he thought he might of used a belt, but
22 then he thought about it and he says, no, I used my
23 hands, I throttled her.
24 Q. Okay. Now, but he does tell you he handcuffed her; is
25 that right?
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1 A. Yes, ma'am, he did handcuff her.
2 Q. Now, earlier Judge Waller saw a picture -- a fuller
3 picture, actually -- this is a crop of that same
4 picture, but handcuffs were found at his home while
5 executing the warrant and this picture demonstrates
6 that; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. And under those handcuffs a bandana that might be used
9 for a gag as well?
10 A. Yes, that is possible.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 Now, after he throttled her, she was, as he
13 expressed, dead?
14 A. Yeah, he advised she was dead and she didn't come
15 back.
16 Q. All right. Some of the other people that he had
17 strangled before did come back?
18 A. Yeah. He advised that some people have come back. He
19 said it wasn't as easy as the movies make out, that it
20 does take time. Your hands have to be strong. They
21 get cramped. He advised he used a massage ball to
22 strengthen his hands. Just a couple -- two to three
23 minutes usually is what it takes.
24 Q. And so he said because that strangulation process with
25 your hands is so rough, it's sometimes kind of nice to
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1 have a little leverage; is that right?
2 A. Yes, ma'am, that's true.
3 Q. And what kind of things did he like to use for
4 leverage, and in what manner did he use them?
5 A. Used a belt or rope and twisting method from the back.
6 Q. So once you get the belt or rope around, you just
7 twist it?
8 A. Yeah, you just twist it and choke them out.
9 Q. Makes it a little user than using your hands?
10 A. Makes it a lot easier.
11 Q. Now, the picture behind you -- another picture taken
12 during the execution of the search warrant of Rader's
13 -- I think this is his shed, actually, behind the home
14 -- showing that he had -- and this is only one of the
15 many places where he had ropes and belts and those
16 leverage instruments; is that correct?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. And -- but this does demonstrate at least one place
19 where he kept those?
20 A. Yes, ma'am, it does.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, she's dead. What does he do then?
22 A. He advised he stripped her and wrapped her up in her
23 blankets. And he had the keys already to her vehicle.
24 He went outside and popped the trunk open and put her
25 in the trunk.
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1 Q. Now, those are his words?
2 A. Those are his words.
3 Q. Popped the trunk?
4 A. Popped the trunk.
5 Q. To get the body in?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. All right. Go ahead.
8 A. And he said Marine Hedge was the first one he ever
9 dealt with a dead body where he had to move her.
10 Couldn't believe how heavy she was, even as small as
11 she was. He got her out to the car and put her
12 inside.
13 Q. Okay. So -- so this is the first time, in his words,
14 that he's killed the Otero family, he's killed Kathryn
15 Bright, he's killed Shirley Vian, he's killed Nancy
16 Fox, and now he's killing Marine Hedge, and he's
17 moving her and he can't believe it.
18 A. Yes, ma'am.
19 Q. And, as we know, she had no bedding on her bed?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And when her car was found, part of the investigation
22 revealed -- and this is an original crime scene photo
23 taken at that time when her car was found, and all of
24 her bedding was in that trunk; is that correct?
25 A. That is correct.
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1 Q. Thank you.
2 Now, he had a plan for Marine Hedge -- he didn't
3 conceive of this plan when he was at the cubby thing,
4 he had it before that; is that correct?
5 A. Repeat that, please.
6 Q. He described for you in this interview with him a plan
7 that he had to do with her body; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, ma'am, it was.
9 Q. And what was it?
10 A. He advised he was going to take her to a barn and have
11 his way with her.
12 Q. Okay. And, in fact, he said he had a barn all rigged
13 up with some plastic?
14 A. Yes. He advised he had a barn where he had the
15 plastic and other items already there. That he has a
16 things about barns.
17 Q. Now -- and that is something that he had expressed not
18 only to you, but in other interviews that he had -- he
19 liked to strangle things in barns; is that right?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. In fact, what did he tell you about that?
22 A. He advised me when he was younger, he used to kill
23 cats and dogs and hang them in the barns. Wrap them
24 up in bailing wire and hang them. Just a kid thing.
25 Q. Just one of the things I did, is that a quote from
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1 him?
2 A. That is what he said.
3 Q. And usually it was the stray cats?
4 A. Stray cats.
5 Q. Go ahead.
6 Now, he's telling you about how he wanted to take
7 -- now, he used her name. He called her Marie
8 sometimes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But her name is not Marie?
11 A. No, it is not.
12 Q. Her name was Marine?
13 A. Marine.
14 Q. All right. But he took the liberty of referring to
15 her in a more casual way?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Now, he's telling you all about his ideas about barns,
18 and then suddenly he makes a little change on you,
19 doesn't he?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What does he say?
22 A. He advised that this isn't what was going on. It
23 wasn't honest. He wasn't going to take her to the
24 barn. He took her to his church.
25 Q. Now, you may have been viewing or -- we -- you may
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1 have been viewing the plea made by Mr. Rader. And he
2 indicated -- and I think there may have been some
3 confusion at that time, because he didn't describe
4 fully what he did at the church, did he?
5 A. No, he did not.
6 Q. Well, let's take a look at that, because he did
7 describe that to you, didn't he?
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. Let's go to the next screen. Next screen. Just a
10 moment. Having a technical difficulty.
11 All right. Now, what -- you know, he knew
12 eventually that some of the -- his stuff or stash or
13 mother lode would be located?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. By law enforcement now that he had been caught?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. So he knew that this barn theory -- about taking her
18 to a barn was not going to fly?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And what did he say about that?
21 A. He advised that we'd know as soon as we saw the
22 pictures that it definitely was not a barn.
23 Q. Yeah. The pictures that he took of Marine Hedge were
24 not in a barn?
25 A. That is correct.
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1 Q. Now, did you ask him about which church it was that he
2 took Marine Hedge's dead body to?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And what church was that?
5 A. It was Christ Lutheran. It's on Hillside.
6 Q. And that's what he told you. He told you where it
7 was?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. And that it was across from Heights, which is Heights
10 High School?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. But he also indicated -- and I think currently there
13 is a newer building there than there was at the time
14 that he took Marine Hedge's body there.
15 A. Yes, that church has been rebuilt.
16 Q. All right. But at the same location?
17 A. The same location.
18 Q. Now, what did he do to prepare the Christ Lutheran
19 Church for the delivery of the dead body of Marine
20 Hedge?
21 A. He advised that he had already had items there, which
22 were plastic to cover windows and tacks. He advised
23 that when he pulled up, he took her out of the trunk,
24 laid her in the fur tree line along the roadway, went
25 in and covered the windows up. Had to turn the lights
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1 on, went outside to make sure there was no light
2 showing.
3 Q. Now, wait. He got the plastic that he had already
4 stored there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And he puts it on the windows?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. With thumb tacks?
9 A. With tacks.
10 Q. And then he goes and checks to make sure no one can
11 see inside the church at night?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Go ahead.
14 A. And then he went out and brought Marine Hedge inside.
15 Q. Now, before we get to that, another thing found in the
16 properties and possessions of Rader during the
17 execution of the search warrant were various places
18 where he had rolls of black plastic.
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And these two pictures demonstrate that. In addition
21 to that, in his stash, there were other Polaroid
22 photographs found that Rader had taken of himself
23 wrapped and bound in plastic?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Now, we don't know where those were taken; is that
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1 correct?
2 A. Um, no, we don't have any idea.
3 Q. Because at the time we were talking to him, we had not
4 found this -- these picture bondage pictures.
5 A. Yeah, we had no knowledge of these pictures at that
6 time.
7 Q. All right. They aren't black plastic, but they are
8 plastic?
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. All right. Go ahead, please.
11 Now, did it matter to him whether she was dead or
12 alive?
13 A. No. He advised me that she was going to the church
14 either way. Alive or dead, she was going.
15 Q. So even though he had -- had this fantasy about barns
16 and liked those, in this instance, he was gonna direct
17 that fantasy at that church?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. All right. And then he indicates to you -- and I
20 think he told us that the bondage got him in trouble.
21 And then he had my time with her?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Can you tell us what he meant by, my time with her?
24 A. What I think he meant was that he used all these
25 bondage, different poses, and took pictures.
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1 Q. And, in fact, in his mother lode there were more than
2 three -- we have three here today. The least -- the
3 least graphic, if you will. Three photographs taken
4 by Rader of Marine Hedge bound in his -- in the ways
5 that he desired in a sexually explicit manner; is that
6 correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Okay. We are going to be showing three photographs at
9 this time that viewers may not want to see. So if you
10 do not want to, please lower your head.
11 This first one is a photograph taken in that
12 church. Marine is on the floor; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And she is dead, and that is in the basement of that
15 church?
16 A. That is correct. That is the bedding from her bed.
17 Q. I think you could see black plastic in the background,
18 but -- and this is another. We have blurred part of
19 this photograph so that it's not as explicit as it was
20 when it was in the hands of Rader. But that is, other
21 than that, an accurate depiction here on the screen of
22 what he had in his possession?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. All right. Another way in which he thought would be a
25 good way for her to be posed for his picture taking?
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1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Thank you. Go ahead.
3 She wasn't -- he had high heels as part of this
4 and other apparel. We have hose and a gag around her
5 mouth, et cetera.
6 A. I have no knowledge where he obtained those.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
8 A. Whether he brought them or already had them.
9 Q. But he did tell you how he did it?
10 A. Yes, ma'am.
11 Q. Tell us what he told you.
12 A. He told us that he photographed her in different
13 poses. She was dead. And we would find the pictures
14 sooner or later.
15 Q. Now, we have two more Polaroids of poses that Rader
16 crafted. Again, on the floor. Again, in a different
17 position, so -- and then to the next one, please.
18 Okay. Go ahead, please.
19 All right. The -- did he tell you how much time
20 he spent in that church basement with black plastic up
21 of moving her in all these different positions and
22 tying her up in various ways?
23 A. He did not tell us any time. We did have knowledge
24 from interviews that the boyfriend left at
25 approximately 1:00 a.m. on the 27th. Rader advised
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1 that while at the church, the sun started coming up.
2 And he had to leave to get back to the scouting thing.
3 He had to clean up, get rid of everything, and clean
4 himself up. And so you -- you know, five hours,
5 probably.
6 Q. There was -- we don't have to go back to it. There
7 was a picture behind you that I know you're aware of.
8 It was a crime scene photograph of panty hose that
9 were found with her body; is that correct?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And knowing these were used to bind her, it's been
12 marked as State's Exhibit No. 20. Would you reach in
13 there and get those out for us?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 These are those panty hose that were found with
17 her body?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And they have knots in them as if they were tied in
20 some fashion around some portion of her body. At this
21 time we don't know which portion.
22 A. No, ma'am, we do not.
23 Q. But possibly several ways; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And these were collected by Greg Schauner --
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1 A. By Greg Schauner.
2 Q. -- of the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Department, and
3 have been maintained in the custody of the Sedgwick
4 County Sheriff's Department until -- and used for
5 court purposes?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 Now, you had mentioned that he tried to clean up
9 after he had killed her and bound her; is that
10 correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Now, just earlier in the Fox case, he thought his call
13 was a bold move, but in this instance, he actually
14 went back into the church to clean up?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Because, as he told you, what? He didn't think anyone
17 would challenge that?
18 A. He didn't think there would be any problem with
19 somebody bothering him, phone calls, coming to the
20 church, if he was cleaning up. It's the church he
21 went to. It was not uncommon for him to be there.
22 Q. He was a congregation member?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. All right. He also indicated that one of his concerns
25 was the daylight coming; is that correct?
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1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And to him it was -- he started to panic?
3 A. He started to panic. He needed to get back to the
4 camp.
5 Q. Back to the cubbies?
6 A. To the cubby.
7 Q. Go ahead.
8 And then -- so, he didn't leave her in the church
9 basement?
10 A. No, ma'am, he did not.
11 Q. He loaded her back up in the trunk of her car?
12 A. In her car.
13 Q. And found a nice place to dump her?
14 A. Yes, ma'am.
15 Q. And that nice place is where?
16 A. A quarter mile east of Webb Road on 53rd Street North,
17 which there's a --
18 Q. And that was where --
19 A. In which there was a drainage ditch in which he
20 basically said he just dumped her in there.
21 Q. And exactly that's how she was found, dumped?
22 A. Yeah, dumped in the culvert in the water. He covered
23 her with Pampas grass and fern trees.
24 Q. The photograph I just showed you -- wait. The
25 photograph I just showed you and this one indicates
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1 that area and was taken at the time her body was found
2 May 5th; is that correct?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. All right. Can you, with your pointer, kind of point
5 out the area of that ditch where he dumped her?
6 A. Right in here.
7 Q. All right. Now, this -- as I have come to understand
8 it by the descriptions, this was an area in the county
9 that other individuals used for -- as a dumping
10 ground?
11 A. Yes. Mr. Rader advised me that he knew that was a
12 dumping ground, and there were two carcasses of two
13 dogs also in the ditch.
14 Q. There were also dog carcasses there with the body of
15 Marine Hedge?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. We're going to show two crime scene photographs taken
18 of that ditch and the body of Marine Hedge. This
19 actually is very difficult to see where she is, but
20 there was material on top of Marine Hedge; is that
21 correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. As if someone had tried to -- additionally hide her
24 body?
25 A. That is correct.
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1 Q. Did he talk to you about trying to cover her in some
2 fashion?
3 A. He advised he just covered her up with what was there.
4 Q. Can you point out for us kind of where her body is in
5 that photograph?
6 A. Right there.
7 Q. All right. Thank you. Go ahead.
8 Now, after dumping her there, he goes to the
9 cubbies, but then he gets a little bit worried about
10 that evidence?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. What evidence is he worried about?
13 A. He advised he felt that he left some cords there.
14 Q. Um-hum.
15 A. And was scared of what law enforcement could do with
16 the cords. And he told me he went back the next day,
17 which he then said he went Monday -- which the 27th
18 was a Saturday.
19 Q. Well, and cord, too, at that time -- this is in 1985
20 -- at that time there were -- had been a number of
21 murders in this county that have been visited today
22 where cord was used, so that could connect him to the
23 BTK murders; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. So he goes back to her body, finds it, and stops there
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1 early in the morning and retrieves that cord from her
2 body?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And recognized that she was already starting to
5 decompose?
6 A. Yes. He advised it was -- she was starting to
7 decompose. It was quite smelly. He did obtain the
8 cord real quick. He had changed his boots, not to
9 leave similar tracks. Did it real early in the
10 morning, and left hurriedly.
11 Q. One more photograph of her in the ditch. This is
12 after the brush has been removed. And can you point
13 out where her head and face is?
14 A. Her head is right here.
15 Q. And then her body extends to the right?
16 A. It extends here.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 As we have become aware of Rader's collections, he
19 strives for media attention, and he saves some
20 archives; is that correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. And these are just a sampling of those, and these are
23 archives as they pertain to the death of Marine Hedge?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Now, he also indicated, as he has in the Fox matter,
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1 that he took some stuff?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. What did he tell you?
4 A. He advised he took a driver's license and some small
5 jewelry. But he also had taken her purse and had
6 ditched it upon going back to Brittany Square to dump
7 her vehicle. He had thrown out a blouse that she was
8 wearing that night and a purse. He had thrown them
9 alongside of the road. And he also got rid of the
10 handcuffs.
11 Q. Now, when he was telling you about -- he said he took
12 some underwear maybe, too, or something. Did he
13 describe that -- that he may have picked up some
14 underwear?
15 A. Um, yeah, he may have taken some underwear. He wasn't
16 sure.
17 Q. But he indicates that, you know, it really wasn't
18 nothing real big?
19 A. Nothing really big.
20 Q. But in his stuff with the Polaroid photographs that he
21 kept for his memory of the death of Marine -- murder
22 of Marine Hedge there was a ring; is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. This has been removed from that Polaroid package, but
25 you have seen that package?
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1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. And it was inside an old plastic bag?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And this ring, part of State's Exhibit No. 20, was in
5 that bag; is that right?
6 A. That is correct.
7 MS. PARKER: The State would move to admit
8 State's Exhibit No. 21.
9 MS. MCKINNON: No objection.
10 THE COURT: All right. 21 will be admitted.
11 Are you going to move for 20?
12 MS. PARKER: And move for 20. Thank you.
13 MS. MCKINNON: No objection, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. I'll admit 20.
15 Q. (By Ms. Parker) But this not really big stuff was
16 actually a mother's ring?
17 A. That is correct.
18 MS. PARKER: I have no other questions.
19 Thank you.
20 THE COURT: All right. Cross?
21 MS. MCKINNON: No questions, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: May this witness be excused?
23 MS. PARKER: Yes, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You are
25 excused.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 We'll be in recess until 10 after 3:00.
2 (End of Volume III.)
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JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 STATE OF KANSAS )
) ss:
3 SEDGWICK COUNTY )
4 I, Janese M. Palmer, a Certified Shorthand
5 Reporter within and for the State of Kansas, and the
6 Official Court Reporter for Division XI of the District
7 Court of Sedgwick County, Kansas, do hereby certify that I
8 was present in my official capacity on the 17th day of
9 August, 2005, when the foregoing hearing in the matter of
10 the State of Kansas vs. Dennis L. Rader, Case Number 05 CR
11 498, the sentencing, was heard; that I reported the same
12 in stenographic shorthand; that I later reduced the same
13 to a typewritten transcript of the proceedings had
14 thereon; and that the foregoing is a true and correct
15 transcript of the oral proceedings had and made of record
16 at said hearing.
17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
18 and official seal this 17th day of August, 2005.
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22____________________________
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
23Certified Shorthand Reporter
Registered Professional Reporter
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JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER