Transcript of Dennis Rader sentencing August 17, 2005 Part Two: the murders of Kathryn Bright and Shirley Vian
IN THE EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
DISTRICT COURT, SEDGWICK COUNTY, KANSAS
2 CRIMINAL DEPARTMENT
3 STATE OF KANSAS, )
)
4 Plaintiff, )
)
5 vs. )
Case No. 05 CR 498
) VOLUME II
6 DENNIS L. RADER,
) WEDNESDAY, 8-17-05
) SECOND A.M. SESSION
7 Defendant. )
)
8 ________________________)
9
10 TRANSCRIPT OF SENTENCING
PROCEEDINGS
11
12 PROCEEDINGS had
and entered of record
13 in the above-entitled case on August 17, 2005,
14 before the Honorable Gregory L. Waller, Judge of
15 Division No. 5 of the Eighteenth Judicial District
16 of Kansas.
17
18 APPEARANCES:
19 The State of
Kansas appeared by and through
20 its attorneys, Ms. Nola Foulston, District Attorney, Ms.
21 Kim Parker, Chief Deputy District Attorney, Mr. Kevin
22 O'Connor, Deputy District Attorney and Mr. Aaron Smith,
23 Assistant District Attorney, 535 North Main, Wichita,
24 Kansas, 67203.
25 The Defendant,
Dennis Rader, appeared in
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 person and by his attorneys, Mr. Charles S. Osburn,
2 Chief Public Defender and Ms. Sarah McKinnon, Assistant
3 Public Defender, 604 North Main, Suite D, Wichita,
4 Kansas, 67203.
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CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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I N D E X
2 State's Witnesses Direct
3 CLINT SNYDER
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4 DANA GOUGE
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5 Certificate
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CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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THE COURT: All right. We are back on
2 the record in State vs. Rader. The
State may
3 proceed with their next witness.
4
MR. O'CONNOR: State calls Detective
5 Clint Snyder.
6
7
CLINT SNYDER,
8 called as a witness, having been first
duly
9 sworn, testified as follows:
10
DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. O'CONNOR:
12 Q. Sir, could you tell the Judge your name, please?
13 A. Yes. Clint Snyder.
14 Q. And Detective Snyder, you are a member of the
15 BTK task force; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And were you assigned a case looking into the
18 murder of Kathryn Bright?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, could you give -- and again, you are
21 Detective Clint Snyder of the Wichita Police
22 Department?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, could you tell -- give Judge Waller kind of
25 an idea of what happened to Kathryn Bright in
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 April of '74?
2 A. Yes. April 4th of 1974 an intruder broke into
3 the home of Kathryn Bright, confronted her
and
4 her brother, Kevin, as they returned home.
5 During the course of this confrontation
both of
6 them were bound, the suspect attempted to
7 strangle both of them during this
confrontation
8 and Kevin Bright was shot twice in the
head. He
9 survived those injuries. Kathryn
succumbed to
10 injuries that was inflicted upon her during
this
11 confrontation.
12 Q. Now, let's talk about Kathryn just a bit.
13 Officer -- an officer arrived on the scene; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There was a report of a shooting?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And it's because Kevin had run out of the house
19 and some individuals had picked him up and
taken
20 him to the hospital?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Now, an officer -- do you recall the officer's
23 name that responded?
24 A. Officer Landon.
25 Q. And Officer Landon responded and what did he
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
6
1 discover when he got to Kathryn Bright's
home?
2 A. When he came inside Kathryn was laying on the
3 floor in the living room, face down in a
pool of
4 her own blood, clutching a telephone in
her
5 hand. She was in and out of
consciousness at
6 that point.
7 Q. And was she able to communicate with this
8 officer?
9 A. Yes. He asked her what had happened to her.
10 She was able to lift up her blouse and show him
11 some stab wounds on her abdomen area and he was
12 able to get from her her name and he was able
to
13 ask her if she knew who the perpetrator was.
14 And she said no.
15 Q. And she was bleeding profusely?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Now, Dennis Rader was arrested and he was
18 interviewed by law enforcement on February 25th
19 of this year and into the 26th; is that
correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, were you present when Dennis Rader was
22 interviewed by law enforcement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you speak with Rader specifically about
25 the murder of Kathryn Bright?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And during the course of that it was videotaped?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And you have reviewed the videotape?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in this PowerPoint presentation that's
7 going to be coming up here we're going to
have
8 photographs of the crime scene, some
autopsy
9 photographs and we're going to have some
quotes
10 that were pulled out, quotes by Dennis Rader
11 that were pulled out from the interview.
So at
12 various times I'm going to ask you to take a
13 look behind you and ask you some questions
about
14 what's up on the scene (sic). Okay?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Now, you told detective -- or you told Dennis
17 Rader that you were there to talk to him about
18 the Kathy Bright case?
19 A. That's correct. I went in, introduced myself,
20 told him who I was, told him I was with the
21 Wichita Police Department, told him that I had
22 been assigned the Kathy Bright homicide.
And
23 that was just introductions I made before the
24 interview.
25 Q. And right after telling him that your case is
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 the Kathy Bright case, I believe there's
2 something up on the screen, do you recall
what
3 Dennis Rader had to say about Kathy
Bright?
4 A. Yes. He commented sweet kid. And asked me
5 well, what do you want to know about it.
I told
6 him I just wanted to know about what
occurred.
7 And then he told me that he called her
Project
8 Lights Out. And then he discussed
with me about
9 the date that that occurred, which was
April
10 4th, 1974.
11 Q. So again, going back, he's got projects, those
12 are his names for the people he hunted,
stalked,
13 trolled after, whatever you want to call them?
14 A. Correct. And he would call them projects, or
15 PJs, for short.
16 Q. And Kathy Bright was a sweet kid and she was
17 Project Lights Out?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Behind you there's a photograph. Can you tell
20 us who that is a photograph of?
21 A. Yes. That is a photo of Kathryn Bright.
22 Q. And when Kathryn Bright was murdered how old was
23 she?
24 A. 21 years of age.
25 Q. Now, did Rader tell you how he came upon or
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 selected Kathy Bright?
2 A. He said he was driving through the area one day
3 and spotted her going inside the house
with a
4 friend.
5 Q. Now, did he say what he was doing? Did he have
6 a name for it?
7 A. Yes. I believe he said he was trolling at that
8 point.
9 Q. And did he say why he was drawn to Kathy Bright?
10 A. He said that she fit that profile.
11 Q. And did he explain to you what the profile might
12 be?
13 A. He said that he couldn't really explain what it
14 was, but it was just something about her that
15 drew his attention to her.
16 Q. But it was the BTK profile, is what he would
17 explain later?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Now, when he said he was out trolling and when
20 he wanted to actually act upon his projects,
21 when he was -- when he had planned to kill
22 somebody, did he tell you what he did to get
23 ready for that?
24 A. Yes. He would -- usually the trolling stage
25 would then move to the stalking stage, where he
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 would conduct surveillance on his
potential
2 victims, walking around the area. He
said he
3 actually sat off her house in his car and
4 watched the comings and goings from the
house.
5 Q. And did he tell -- did he do any kind of
6 exercises to get ready to strangle
somebody?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what did he do?
9 A. He said he would sit around with his squeeze
10 ball and he demonstrated that he would use the
11 squeeze ball, squeezing it to get his hand
12 strength up to where he would be able to
13 strangle someone. He explained the reason
for
14 that was is because it was extremely difficult
15 to strangle a person, that your hands would
16 become numb and that sometimes it would take
two
17 to three minutes to actually strangle someone.
18 Q. So he wanted to work out to get ready to kill
19 somebody?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Now, this is a photograph, can you tell us what
22 this is a photograph of?
23 A. Yes. This is a photograph depicting the front
24 of the residence at 3217 East 13th Street, here
25 in Wichita. This is where Kathryn Bright
was
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 murdered.
2 Q. And this door here that I'm circling with the
3 cursor, would that be the door that
Officer
4 Landon went into?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, did he -- again, you've talked a little bit
7 about it, about trolling; is that correct?
8 These are some of the things he told you
about
9 what he did?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And he even said he went up to the house and
12 knocked a few times?
13 A. Yes. He said he'd went up to her house, knocked
14 a couple times and no one had answered the
door.
15 Q. And on this day when he decided he was going to
16 kill Kathryn Bright, did he tell you how he got
17 ready for that? There's a quote up behind
you.
18 A. Basically, again, this is describing that he saw
19 her go into the house one day, he thought to
20 himself well, this might work. And that
after
21 Otero he had his stuff ready to go, he would
22 have items with him, tape, ropes, binding
23 material, whatever he might need for what he
24 called a hit and he would carry that stuff
25 around with him.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
12
1 Q. And he picked Kathy Bright out and he decided
2 that he was going to -- that this -- gee
whiz,
3 this might work?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And did she (sic) say anything about her
6 brother -- about her brother, Kevin?
7 A. Yes. He said that he wasn't aware that she had
8 a brother.
9 Q. In his trolling that he did and in stalking of
10 her, he didn't discover whether she had a
11 brother?
12 A. Right. He said that he was particularly
13 concerned, when he was in the stalking stage or
14 picking a potential victim, about whether or
not
15 they had what he called a present male.
He
16 didn't -- he wanted to avoid a present male in
17 the home, due to the confrontation that he had
18 had at Otero, with Mr. Otero.
19 Q. And he was afraid of men; is that right?
20 A. I believe that's correct.
21 Q. And this is a photograph of Kevin Bright?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. How old was Kevin Bright when Rader came into
24 their home, killed his sister and shot him?
25 A. Kevin was 19 at that time.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
13
1 Q. Did Rader indicate to you how he intended -- he
2 had, what I believe has been testified to
3 before, he had things that he called a
russ (ph
4 sp); is that correct?
5 A. Yes. A ruse or a russ is what he referred to,
6 which was actually a ruse.
7 Q. We might know it as a ruse, right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. And -- but he called it a russ. Did he indicate
10 to you what russ he was going to use on the
11 Brights?
12 A. Yes. He was going to carry some books, like
13 school textbooks with him, he would pretend
14 that he was a WSU student, looking for
15 somebody's house in order to study or work on a
16 project.
17 Q. And did he tell you that this is a -- this was
18 his plan, did he tell you whether he actually
19 did it?
20 A. Yes. He said he -- the day that he murdered
21 Kathryn Bright that he had taken some books
with
22 him, to use that as his ruse to get into the
23 house.
24 Q. Now, he describes to you in a matter of fact
25 manner how he -- how he killed Kathryn Bright;
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
14
1 is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And so when he's describing to you how he went
4 up there to the porch with his school
books and
5 he discovered -- he says things like lo
and
6 behold, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And what did he find out about the screen door
9 in the back?
10 A. He went back there after he'd been to the front
11 door, no one had answered, and the screen door
12 was locked so he just punched it out, reached
13 in, unlatched it and went in.
14 Q. Now, he did tell you some things that he did
15 differently than the Oteros; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what were some of those things?
18 A. He did not take his hit kit or some of the
19 materials that he had taken with him on Otero,
20 he did not cut the phone line, did he -- like
he
21 did on Otero.
22 Q. Now, and would he explain to you later that was
23 the reason he didn't want it to be -- what did
24 he want the police to think?
25 A. He didn't want the police to make the linkage
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
15
1 between the Otero murder and the Kathryn
Bright
2 murder. He wanted to change his MO
so that the
3 police would think this was a different
crime,
4 committed by a different perpetrator.
5 Q. Because Rader never wanted to get caught; is
6 that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Even during the course of the interview he told
9 you he wasn't planning on getting caught?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. He just said he got outsmarted by law
12 enforcement?
13 A. Basically, yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now, this is a crime scene photograph of
15 the Bright home from -- what are we looking at
16 here?
17 A. Okay. This is the back side of the house and
18 this would be -- this picture depicts the
screen
19 door that he said that he punched the screen
in,
20 in order to unlatch so that he could gain entry
21 into the house.
22 Q. And then in the back there, inside the screen,
23 that is the -- what door is that?
24 A. That's the door that leads into like the kitchen
25 area, the back area of the house. In this
--
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 Q. Does this --
2 A. Yeah, this picture depicts that door and it
3 depicts the glass that's broken out of the
door.
4 Q. And what did Rader say he did with the glass?
5 A. He said he broke the glass, unlocked the door
6 and then he went in and then he actually
tried
7 to sweep up the glass. He was
concerned that
8 they might -- or when she returned she
might
9 enter the back door and she might see all
the
10 glass and that she might freak out and leave
and
11 he wouldn't be able to accomplish what he
wanted
12 to.
13 Q. And did responding officers indicate in their
14 reports that the glass was swept up?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, did Rader tell you what he did in order to
17 get control of Kevin and Kathryn Bright?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what did he tell them?
20 A. He said that as they entered the front door of
21 the residence he had his gun out and he told
22 them that he was wanted in California and that
23 he just wanted some money, some food and their
24 car, told them that there were wanted posters
25 out for him and basically trying to put them at
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
17
1 ease, just thinking that he was going to
tie
2 them up and then leave.
3 Q. So he's lying to them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Because he indicated to you that his full intent
6 was to kill Kathryn Bright?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And now that Kevin walked in with Kathryn, did
9 he indicate to you what was going to have
to
10 happen with Kevin?
11 A. Yes. He said he reiterated several times that
12 he was going to have to get Kevin out of the
way
13 in order to accomplish what he wanted to with
14 Kathryn.
15 Q. All right. And what did he have Kevin do?
16 A. He had Kevin tie up -- I'm sorry, he had --
17 yeah, that's correct, he had Kevin tie up
18 Kathryn and then he tied up Kevin. He
said he
19 used clothing materials, bandanas, T-shirts,
20 other items that he found in the house, nylon
21 stockings. He tied Kevin up in the first
22 bedroom directly to the left of the front door
23 and tied Kevin to the bed. He then moved
24 Kathryn into the other bedroom and where he
25 subsequently tied her to a chair inside of that
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
18
1 bedroom.
2 Q. Now, this is a photograph that was taken at the
3 hospital of Kevin Bright, of his neck.
And what
4 are those marks that go across his neck
there?
5 A. Those marks depicted in that photograph indicate
6 ligature marks on the neck of Kevin
Bright.
7 Q. Now, up in here, as you can see maybe at the
8 top, you see these little dots, would that
be
9 what is referred to as petechial
hemorrhaging or
10 do you know?
11 A. I believe that's probably some stippling or some
12 gun powder that is in the face of Kevin, from
13 the gunshot injury.
14 Q. So that might actually be blowback from the gun?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, did he tell you what he did before he
17 started to strangle -- as he put it, before I
18 started to strangle him, what did he do?
19 A. Yes. He said that he turned on the stereo. He
20 did that in order to muffle any strangling or
21 gagging noises so that Kathryn wouldn't be able
22 to hear what he was doing to Kevin.
23 Q. And so this gives an indication that he knew
24 exactly what was -- he was going to do and he
25 needed to turn the stereo up so neither one
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
19
1 would hear what was going on?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And what did he say about Kevin? Why did he --
4 did he say why he had to strangle Kevin?
5 A. He wanted to have his time with Kathryn and so
6 he had to get Kevin out of the way.
7 Q. Kevin would be kind of a problem for him?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Would disturb his plan?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And did he say what he was -- he told you he had
12 to get her (sic) out of the way before he did
13 anything to Kathleen?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And he uses the word Kathleen, the name
16 Kathleen?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in order to get him away did he say -- to
19 get rid of him, to get him out of the way, did
20 he say what he did to Kevin Bright?
21 A. Yes. He tried to strangle him.
22 Q. And did he say he had some problems with the
23 items that he used to try to strangle him?
24 A. Yes. He said that because he hadn't brought his
25 good stuff or his chords with him, that he had
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
20
1 some problems with the clothing material
and
2 that Kevin was actually able to escape and
they
3 struggled.
4 Q. Now, he started strangling him, where did he
5 tell you Kevin had his hands?
6 A. At the time he was being strangled Kevin was
7 tied up.
8 Q. All right. So Kevin was tied and he goes in to
9 strangle him and he says Kevin gets loose,
gets
10 to his feet?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And what did Mr. Rader say he did then when
13 Kevin got to his feet?
14 A. He said that when Kevin got to his feet he'd
15 brought two guns in with him, one was a .357
16 Magnum that he had in a shoulder holster and
one
17 was a .22 pistol that he said he had tucked
into
18 his waistband. He said I did one of those
John
19 Wayne things and he showed where he grabbed the
20 gun in his waistband and then he pointed and he
21 went (witness uses onomatopoeia) and he shot
22 Kevin.
23 Q. He actually made the noise for you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And during the course of this interview he would
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
21
1 stand up and demonstrate to you the things
that
2 he did, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And during this did you get a feeling as to
5 whether or not Mr. Rader was sorry about
what he
6 had done?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And would it be fair to say that Mr. Rader was
9 actually very proud of what he had done?
10 A. Yes. He commented to me at one point, I'm
11 sorry, I know this is a human being, but I'm a
12 monster.
13 Q. And in this particular one this man, or coward,
14 that has killed the two little kids, compares
15 himself to John Wayne?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And did he say what happened then?
18 A. He said that after he shot Kevin that he went
19 down.
20 Q. And he said to you, well, I thought well, I got
21 him?
22 A. Right. He thought that Kevin was probably dead
23 at that point.
24 Q. And at this time then he could turn his
25 attention to who?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
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1 A. Kathryn.
2 Q. And did he say what he did -- there's another
3 quote back here, if you could take the
time to
4 read it, what he said he did then?
5 A. Yes. As he returned to the other bedroom where
6 he had Kathryn tied up to a chair, at that
point
7 she was basically hysterical because she
had
8 heard the gunshot and was asking him what
did
9 you do to my brother, what did you do to
my
10 brother. And he tried to console her and
say I
11 just wounded him, he's okay. When I get
out of
12 here I'll call the police and he'll be okay.
13 Q. Lying to them?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. And she, Kathryn, being tied to a chair and
16 hearing a gunshot and being told her brother
was
17 shot, she started to do what, according to
18 Rader?
19 A. She started to struggle to try to get out of her
20 bindings that had her tied to the chair.
21 Q. And he actually told you she started going
22 hysterical and going crazy?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And then did he tell what happened then? Did he
25 give you a description of what happened then?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
23
1 There's a quote that I have back up on the
2 PowerPoint. Now, this is back at
Kevin Bright;
3 is that correct, this quote?
4 A. Right. He returned -- he returned back to Kevin
5 to check on him and as he came in he
kicked
6 Kevin to see if he was still alive.
And
7 apparently Kevin got up and they started
8 struggling again. And Rader said
that during
9 this struggle Kevin was actually able to
get a
10 hold of his -- again he showed where he had his
11 .357 Magnum in a shoulder holster, Kevin was
12 actually able to get his finger on the trigger
13 and they were struggling over the gun and Rader
14 was trying to keep the gun from discharging,
15 trying to get his finger behind the trigger so
16 that it wouldn't go off. And while this
17 struggle was going on that he pulled his .22
18 pistol again and shot Kevin again with the
19 pistol.
20 Q. All right. So we have two guns?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. All right. And what's the size of a .22
23 compared to a .357 Magnum?
24 A. Well, a .22 is the smaller end of the spectrum,
25 whereas the .357 would be -- the bullet or
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
24
1 projectile would be a lot larger on the
spectrum
2 of sizes of bullets.
3 Q. Now, how big was -- do you have any idea how big
4 Kevin Bright was?
5 A. I believe, according to the reports, he was
6 around five six, 115 pounds at that time.
7 Q. And Rader would have been bigger than him; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes. Rader had told us that after he got out of
10 the service he was around five 10, 175 to 185
11 pounds.
12 Q. So at this time he's thinking that this five
13 six, 19 year old kid is going to kill him, is
14 going to get the best of him?
15 A. Right. He actually made a comment to me that
16 you know, he's a big guy.
17 Q. But he wasn't a big guy, was he?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, the .357, did he indicate to you why he
20 didn't necessarily want to use that .357?
21 A. Not that I recall.
22 Q. Would it be because it might make too much
23 noise?
24 A. Oh, yes, that's correct. He did make a comment
25 about the .357 would make a lot more noise than
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
25
1 a .22 pistol.
2 Q. So again, this goes to the actual planning that
3 he had in his mind, he actually thought
about
4 what weapon he would use?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And again, we have a -- I guess he liked to be a
7 cowboy, or considered himself a cowboy,
but when
8 he shot Kevin Bright again what does he
say?
9 A. Again, he talks about he says it was like in the
10 Westerns, I just pulled my back up and shot
11 Kevin again.
12 Q. But in the Westerns they don't tie their victims
13 up first before they shoot them, do they?
14 A. Not usually.
15 Q. John Wayne didn't do that, did he?
16
MR. OSBURN: Your Honor, I'm going to
17 object.
18
THE COURT: I'll sustain.
19 Q. Now, this is a crime scene photograph of Kevin
20 Bright as he was shot, right?
21 A. That's correct. That was taken at Wesley
22 Hospital and it indicates two gunshot injuries,
23 one above the right lip area there and then one
24 on the right side of his forehead.
25 Q. Now, there were some teeth found in the room
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
26
1 that Kevin was tied up in; is that right?
2 A. Right, I believe two teeth were found on the
3 floor.
4 Q. After taking care of Kevin, Rader said he went
5 back to Kathryn again; is that right?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And what did he say he did to her?
8 A. Well, he had her -- he'd already tied her to the
9 chair at that point.
10 Q. And this chair, is this chair in the photograph
11 here?
12 A. Yes. It's at the bottom right corner here of
13 the photo and you can barely see the chair.
And
14 right here where the pointer is was a nylon
15 stocking which was used to tie her wrists to
the
16 chair.
17 Q. And now this is another photograph that -- what
18 is this here now that you can see better in
this
19 picture?
20 A. This is the same bedroom. Again, this shows the
21 chair and you can see the binding material
22 again, it's a nylon stocking which is on both
23 arms of the chair, which was used to tie her to
24 the chair.
25 Q. Now, right here in the corner is the door frame;
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
27
1 is that right?
2 A. Right. This would be the door frame right here.
3 This picture also, what you just circled
here,
4 shows a blood swipe, apparently from the
5 struggle. And in the middle of the
floor area
6 was a large amount of blood where Kathryn
bled
7 inside of this bedroom.
8 Q. And then there's a telephone back there; is that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, did he say -- you say that she bled. And
12 did he indicate to you whether or not he had to
13 struggle with Kathryn?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how did he describe this struggle with
16 Kathryn Bright?
17 A. She started to struggle and was able to actually
18 get loose from the chair and they began to
19 fight. He said that he had to strike her
around
20 the head area, trying to control her, and at
the
21 same time he was trying to strangle her with a
22 piece of cloth that he had found inside the
23 residence.
24 Q. There's a quote behind you, do you recall him
25 making this quote?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
28
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How did he describe how Kathryn Bright fought?
3 A. She fought like a hell cat.
4 Q. And did he at some time during this fight, when
5 she was fighting like a hell cat with him,
6 trying to save her life, did he indicate
to you
7 at some time he knew he wasn't going to be
able
8 to do what he wanted to do to her?
9 A. Yes. He was wanting to strangle her, that
10 wasn't working because she was fighting and
11 resisting, so at that point he said he pulled
12 out a knife that he had with him and he used
13 that to knife her with.
14 Q. And he actually says to you, in the red here,
15 what does he say when he realizes he's losing
16 control of the fight?
17 A. There was no way I was ever going to do what I
18 wanted to do and I had to put her down.
19 Q. And those are his words?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he said he went ahead and drew knives; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you're familiar with the case and what was
25 collected by law enforcement at the scene?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
29
1 A. Yes.
2
MR. O'CONNOR: May I approach?
3
THE COURT: Yes.
4 Q. Now, I said that you were familiar with what law
5 enforcement collected at the scene; is
that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But you're also familiar with the items that
9 were removed from Dennis Rader's stuff,
from his
10 house, from his office and things like that?
11 A. Yes. I participated in all of those searches.
12 Q. I'm going to hand you what I've marked as
13 State's Exhibit No. 16. Do you know what
14 this -- this is a bag, right, with a sticker on
15 it and it says there's a buck knife and a
sheath
16 in there; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. This bag has been cut, why don't you go ahead
19 and reach in there and pull out what's in
there.
20 A. This is a sheath holding a buck knife that was
21 recovered in Mr. Rader's home. This was
22 recovered in a closet there in his house.
And
23 this is one of the two knives that he indicated
24 to me that was used to stab Kathryn Bright.
25 Q. So when he described how he stabbed Kathryn
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
30
1 Bright, he actually directed you to a
place in
2 his home where you could find the knife or
the
3 knives that he used?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And he described this as a knife he used on
6 Kathryn Bright?
7 A. Right. He actually, during the interview, drew
8 a picture of what the knife would look
like for
9 me.
10 Q. And that picture, is it similar to that knife
11 that you have in front of you, State's Exhibit
12 16?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You can go ahead and put that back. Now,
15 State's Exhibit 17 is in a Ziploc bag.
Was this
16 also found in Dennis Rader's home?
17 A. Yes, it was.
18 Q. And what's the significance of State's Exhibit
19 17?
20 A. State's Exhibit 17 was a -- another buck knife
21 that was found inside the living room area of
22 his home, inside of a bag, and this is a
folding
23 buck knife. And he indicated in the
interview
24 that it was either one of these two knives that
25 he used to kill Kathryn Bright with.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
31
1 Q. And so that was collected at the home because he
2 directed that -- directed law enforcement
to
3 that, saying that might have been the one
I used
4 in Kathryn --
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. On Kathryn?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. But he does indicate, even in this quote here,
9 that he had knives?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he had guns?
12 A. Yes.
13
MR. O'CONNOR: Your Honor, at this
14 time I'd move to admit State's Exhibit 16 and
15 17.
16
MR. OSBURN: No objection, Your Honor.
17
THE COURT: They will be admitted.
18 Q. Now there's going to be some photographs here of
19 a autopsy that show the marks on Kathryn
20 Bright's neck and face. This is a
photograph
21 taken of the autopsy of Kathryn Bright; is that
22 correct, detective?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And here that I have here, what are these along
25 her neck?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
32
1 A. Those are ligature marks on her neck.
2 Q. We also see around her ear?
3 A. Some bruising.
4 Q. And on her face?
5 A. Some more bruising.
6 Q. Okay. And when he said he decided he had to
7 take her -- or put her down, did he
indicate to
8 you what he did in order to put her down?
9 A. Yes. He drew one of his knives and he talked
10 about how he stabbed her up under the ribs, in
11 the back area, he believed, and then at some
12 point he said that he spun her around and stuck
13 her in the front. And he believed that he
had
14 stabbed her two or three times.
15 Q. He said he stabbed her two and three -- two or
16 three times; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But they did an autopsy on Kathryn Bright; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And some photographs are going to come up here
22 that show the stab wounds to Kathryn Bright.
23 Here on this side, here with the cursor, my
24 left, what do those wounds show?
25 A. Those are some stab wounds on the lower back
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
33
1 area.
2 Q. Okay. And at least from this photograph, one,
3 two, three, four, possibly five; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. And then this photograph here to the
7 other side, to the right, you see more --
you
8 see this is from the hospital; is that
correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then there were other stab wounds here on
11 her front?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Now, you talked about this a little bit so we'll
14 go through this pretty fast, but he said he
15 stabbed -- he said he stabbed her under the
16 ribs. Did he indicate to you why he did
that?
17 A. Yeah. He would read detective magazines and
18 other type of materials where -- describing how
19 other killers had killed people and that he
20 believed he read one time, in one of these
21 magazines or books, about how a killer used a
22 knife to kill someone and that you would use
23 upward thrusts under the ribs and that was the
24 best way to kill somebody.
25 Q. So again, he had done his homework on how to
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
34
1 stab somebody?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, again, we have some autopsy photographs
4 that depict 11 stab wounds to Kathy
Bright?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So when he told you he stabbed her, he thought
7 three times, he was off a bit?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And these are the photographs that show all of
10 the stab wounds to Kathryn Bright?
11 A. Yes, I believe so. There were actually seven
12 stab wounds on the lower back area and then
four
13 on the abdomen of Kathryn Bright that they
14 discovered during the autopsy.
15 Q. And these stab wounds, there was blood in the
16 house, there was blood where she was found and
17 blood in that bedroom, also?
18 A. Yes, she bled profusely.
19 Q. And maybe we should go back. You said there was
20 blood in the bedroom behind the chair.
She
21 wasn't found in that bedroom, was she?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The officer found her outside of that bedroom?
24 A. Just outside the bedroom, in the living room
25 area, which is just off of that bedroom area.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
35
1 Q. And she was clutching what?
2 A. A phone.
3 Q. She was trying to call somebody, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And again, she was in a big pool of blood there?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Now, did he -- did Rader tell you what he did
8 after he shot this young boy and -- or
young man
9 and stabbed this young lady?
10 A. Yes, he did.
11 Q. And where did he go?
12 A. Well, he said that he booked it and got out of
13 there and then that -- he talked about how he
14 went home and stashed his clothing, because
they
15 were covered with blood, and how he eventually
16 cleaned up the knife that he used so that no
17 blood evidence could be found on that knife,
18 linking him to that crime.
19 Q. Now, did he talk to you about how -- what
20 Kathryn was doing when she was stabbed and what
21 he thought about it while he was stabbing her?
22 A. Yeah. He said that she was moaning and groaning
23 and he talked about how much she was bleeding
24 and how he got blood over his hands, his shoes,
25 his clothing. He talked about how that he
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
36
1 didn't realize how slick human blood was.
2 Q. And did he describe it as boy, he got blood on
3 his pants and his shoes and stuff like
that, he
4 described it as being a mess?
5 A. Yeah, it was a mess.
6 Q. And did he tell you what he did or what he
7 thought about his shoes in relation to
Kathryn
8 bleeding all over them?
9 A. Yes. He said he had blood on his shoes and he
10 was concerned that he might have left
footprints
11 at the crime scene.
12 Q. And how with blood on the shoes he'd have to get
13 rid of his suede shoes; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did he?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. And there's a quote here, he burned them?
18 A. That's correct. He first stashed them at his
19 parents' house, he said, in the chicken house,
20 chicken coop. Later on he had to burn
those
21 items because of the blood that was all over
22 them.
23 Q. Now, at this time, when he's stabbing Kathryn
24 what turns out to be 11 times, is he -- is his
25 attention then drawn to Kevin again?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
37
1 A. Yes. He said that he heard a door open. At
2 that point he thought that perhaps the
police
3 had been called and were there and that at
that
4 point he thought that the police were just
going
5 to shoot him and kill him right there on
the
6 spot.
7 Q. And what did he decide he had to do? What did
8 he tell you he had to do?
9 A. That's when he said he was booking it and he
10 decided he had to get out of there, because he
11 realized that Kevin had actually gotten up and
12 ran out the door. He saw Kevin running
down the
13 street.
14 Q. And did he tell you what -- that he was somewhat
15 disappointed how this murder turned out?
16 A. Yes. He indicated that shooting or stabbing
17 someone is not what he called his forte.
And so
18 he was disappointed that this one had spiraled
19 out of control and he hadn't abled -- wasn't
20 able to completely do what he wanted to do
21 there.
22 Q. And what he would later describe to you and
23 describe to all the other law enforcement
24 officers that his forte, as he says, was
25 strangling people and watching them suffer?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
38
1 A. That's correct. He indicated that that was his
2 plan all along with Kathryn, was to tie
her to
3 the bed and strangle or suffocate her.
4 Q. And this is a quote specifically about that; is
5 that correct, all of his murders were
what?
6 A. Sexual. He called it sexual overt. He said
7 that basically all of these people were
going to
8 die one of three ways; first, they were
going to
9 be bound, then they would either be
strangled,
10 suffocated or hung.
11 Q. And that the only reason he knifed Kathryn was
12 because he lost control of the situation?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, this -- we've talked about it a little bit,
15 this is where -- this is a crime scene
16 photograph of where Kathy Bright was found
17 laying, right?
18 A. Yes. This depicts where she was found inside
19 the living room area.
20 Q. And that is the telephone that she had in her
21 hand; is that right?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. It's been hung back up?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. And then this is the area here where she was
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
39
1 found laying, you can see a towel and some
blood
2 on the ground?
3 A. Right. That's where she was found, laying face
4 down, by Officer Landon, clutching the
phone.
5 Q. Now, did Rader tell you what would have happened
6 if -- he made a mistake by not bringing
his
7 stuff in here, did he tell you what would
have
8 happened if he would have brought his rope
9 quality?
10 A. Right. He said that because of the binding
11 material that he used he wasn't able to control
12 them like he had planned. He said that if
he
13 had bought his -- or brought his better ropes
14 with him that he would have been able to
control
15 them and that both of them would have died,
16 instead of just Kathryn.
17 Q. And again, here's some strangulation marks on
18 Kathy Bright, an autopsy photograph, the eyes
19 have been blocked out, but this shows the front
20 view of the strangulation marks and it also
21 shows the bruising on her face; is that
correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Which indicates she was in a struggle?
24 A. Yes. And he did indicate that he struck her
25 during that struggle.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
40
1 Q. Now, did he tell you that he had -- his plans
2 further? Did he describe what his
plans were
3 for Kathy Bright?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he even actually had a fantasy that he had
6 drawn out in his -- he called his mother
lode?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And was that collected?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This was in what he called the mother lode, he
11 had actually cut out the newspaper photograph
of
12 Kathy Bright that appeared in the newspaper
13 after she was murdered?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And he had this clipping in his stuff?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In his mother lode, as he calls it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And he also had what?
20 A. He had a document that he called An April Death,
21 that he said that he had written shortly after
22 this crime occurred. He, in this
document,
23 describes the murder of Kathryn Bright, the
24 shooting of Kevin Bright and talks about some
of
25 his fantasy that he had in reference to what he
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
41
1 wanted to do with Kathryn.
2 Q. And this is seven pages typed out, just like
3 this; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. That's actually the first page of the
5 document and it's titled An April Death.
6 Q. And this is -- reading this document, it is
7 clear in reading it that the person
writing it
8 is extremely proud of what he has done;
would
9 that be fair to say?
10 A. I think that's a fair statement.
11 Q. Now, he also had time lines, in his mother lode
12 or in his stuff, about the murders; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So he could keep track of them?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And here what do we see?
18 A. This was in a notebook that he had, he would
19 keep the years and the dates. And you can
see
20 January '74, and then down here, four would be
21 April of '74. And then off to the right
he has
22 PJ Lite (sic) Out, which refers to K B, Kathryn
23 Bright. And again, that was his project
or PJ
24 name for her, was either Project Lights Out or
25 Project Lite Out.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
42
1 Q. Now, we've heard about Dennis Rader's afterlife
2 concept for the victims, that he spent
life
3 contemplating. Did he have a plan
for Kathy
4 Bright in the afterlife?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what was that going to be?
7 A. His plan for Kathryn was to be a sex bondage
8 girl.
9
MR. O'CONNOR: I don't have any other
10 questions. Thank you, detective.
11
THE COURT: Any cross?
12
MR. OSBURN: No, Your Honor.
13
THE COURT: All right. May this
14 witness be excused?
15
MR. O'CONNOR: Yes, Your Honor.
16
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You're
17 excused. You may call your next witness.
18
MS. PARKER: The State will call Dana
19 Gouge.
20
21
DANA GOUGE,
22 called as a witness, having been first duly
23 sworn, testified as follows:
24
DIRECT EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. PARKER:
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
43
1 Q. Would you please tell us your name?
2 A. Dana Gouge.
3 Q. And you are a detective now with the Wichita
4 Police Department; is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And when did you join the police department?
7 A. In February of 1987.
8 Q. And how long have you been a detective?
9 A. For about 11 years.
10 Q. Your primary assignment is the investigation of
11 homicide cases; is that correct?
12 A. That's correct. I'm assigned to the homicide
13 section.
14 Q. And how long have you worked homicides?
15 A. 10 years.
16 Q. More recently, of course, you were assigned to
17 what is called or has been called, in our
18 community, the BTK task force; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when were you assigned to that task force?
21 A. In March of '04.
22 Q. All right. As part of that assignment, I think
23 the general idea has been expressed here,
24 each -- an individual detective or a couple of
25 detectives, at least with the Otero murder,
were
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
44
1 assigned to be responsible for an
individual
2 case; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And what case were you assigned responsibility
5 for?
6 A. I was assigned to the Shirley Vian murder.
7 Q. And in that endeavor, in trying to look at that
8 case, did you review the case files and
the case
9 evidence that were originally collected
and
10 maintained that documented the Vian murder?
11 A. Yes, ma'am.
12 Q. What day did that murder occur?
13 A. March 17th, 1977.
14 Q. On the screen behind you we have a picture of
15 Ms. Vian, Shirley Relford Vian. She was
26
16 years of age at that time; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And where did she live?
19 A. 1311 South Hydraulic, here in Wichita.
20 Q. And did she live there alone?
21 A. No. She lived there with Richard Vian and
22 their -- and she had three children from a
23 previous relationship.
24 Q. All right. Now, in the course of your
25 investigation and reviewing the matter, at one
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
45
1 point Mr. Rader, or Dennis Rader, was
arrested
2 for the murder of Shirley Vian; is that
correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And did you have an occasion, as part of your
5 assignment, to personally interview him
about
6 her murder?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. And as a result of that, did you
9 attempt to learn from him how it is that
he came
10 to focus on Shirley Vian?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. There's a screen behind you that is -- do you
13 recognize that to be a quote from the interview
14 with Dennis Rader?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. What did he describe to you about how he
17 selected her?
18 A. He was familiar with the neighborhood where she
19 resided and that was because he had been
20 stalking in that neighborhood before. He
21 thought it was a good neighborhood for a hit
22 because there was an alley that ran through
that
23 area that was not well-lit and he described it
24 as a good place for a person like him to hang
25 out.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
46
1 Q. Now, when this case was originally investigated
2 one of the children was interviewed, by
the name
3 of Steven; is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And he had indicated, actually indicated that
6 when a man had approached him that he had
seen
7 the man go to another house; is that
correct?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. All right. When you talked to Rader, did he
10 explain to you a little bit about this stalking
11 in that neighborhood and describe anything
12 similar to what Steven had pointed out?
13 A. Yes. He specifically said that he had gone to
14 another residence, was planning to do a hit
15 there, had knocked on the door but didn't get
an
16 answer.
17 Q. And so changed --
18 A. And that's when he saw Steven walking down the
19 street and that's when he approached him.
20 Q. Thank you. The children that were in the home,
21 the oldest boy is on the screen behind you; is
22 that correct? And he was eight at the
time?
23 A. Yes, ma'am.
24 Q. And his name -- formal name was Junior Relford,
25 but he went by Bud?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
47
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And then another picture showing the second
3 child, Steven; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And Steven's here today with us?
6 A. Yes, he is.
7 Q. And how old was Steven at the time?
8 A. Six.
9 Q. And her third child was a small girl?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. And her name is Stephanie and she
12 was four at the time?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And these three pictures of Ms. Vian's children
15 were in her personal effects or in her purse
and
16 collected originally by the Wichita Police
17 Department when they were -- went to the crime
18 scene; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. The screen behind you describes, in Rader's
21 words, how he saw this kid. And what does
he
22 tell you he did with the child?
23 A. When he saw Steven walking down the street he
24 approached him, showed him a photograph of a
25 woman and a child. He realized that
Steven was
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
48
1 home with his mother at 1311 South
Hydraulic at
2 that time.
3 Q. All right. And so he had changed, as we said
4 before, his approach. Did you ask
him about
5 this photograph?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And what did he tell you?
8 A. I asked him what photograph he showed Steven.
9 He told me that it was actually a
photograph of
10 his own wife and his own son.
11 Q. You're saying that Rader explained to you that
12 the photograph that he showed to this young boy
13 was his -- Rader's wife and son?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Why did he use this?
16 A. He used it as a ruse. He planned on pretending
17 that he was a detective in order to gain the
18 confidence and entry into the residence where
he
19 was going to do the hit.
20 Q. The screen behind you is now reflecting the
21 address of 1311 South Hydraulic, Wichita,
22 Kansas?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And that would be the side of the house that
25 faces the street --
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
49
1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. -- that we are looking at right now? So would
3 the sidewalk that he approached Steven on
be
4 running in front of that house?
5 A. Yes, it would be.
6 Q. And that was taken at the time that she was
7 murdered?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. This photo? Now, you had indicated that he was
10 playing the detective ruse. In addition,
as the
11 screen say -- screen shows, he showed him a
12 card, he told him he was a detective; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did he show him -- show them a weapon?
16 A. Yes. He said that after he'd gone to the front
17 door, he knocked on the door and it was opened,
18 he showed them a card, showed them his gun and
19 said that he was a detective.
20 Q. Did he further describe to you his appearance as
21 a detective?
22 A. Yeah. He said he was pretty spiffy looking.
23 That he was wearing dark slacks and a James
Bond
24 style tweed coat.
25 Q. In earlier testimony, Detective Snyder's
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
50
1 testimony, he describes himself like John
Wayne.
2 And to you he described himself like James
Bond?
3 A. A James Bond style coat.
4 Q. All right. In other parts of the interview did
5 he refer to himself as being like a spy?
6 A. Yes, he did. On a number of different occasions
7 he referred to what he did as being like a
spy.
8 Q. Did he describe, once he'd gone in, how he --
9 how he was able to try to manage the
situation?
10 A. He said with a gun he was able to gain easy
11 control, but he wanted to ease them, as long as
12 they remain calm it would be easier for him to
13 do what he wanted. So he told them that
he
14 was -- well, he told Shirley that he was going
15 to tie her up, maybe have sex with her and take
16 some photographs of her and it wouldn't be a
17 pleasant thing, but you know, they would
18 survive.
19 Q. All right. And the screen behind you there is a
20 portion of it highlighted in red, is this a
21 quote that was expressed to you during the
22 interview?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And essentially it describes that he wanted them
25 to think he wasn't that bad of a guy until he
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
51
1 got control?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Did he also -- we have heard in the other
4 presentations that he recalls things that
the
5 individual victims would say to him while
he
6 was -- he was murdering them. And
did he
7 describe some statements that Shirley Vian
said
8 to him?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what did he tell you?
11 A. He had told her that he was going to tie the
12 children up. She asked him not to do
that. So
13 he said that he had to do that and when he went
14 ahead and began to tie the eight year old up,
15 the eight year old began to cry. He
decided
16 that that wasn't going to work so he had
changed
17 his strategy on how he was going to control the
18 children at that point and he decided to put
19 them in the bathroom.
20 Q. All right. In addition to that, he also
21 expressed to Ms. Vian what he was going to do
22 with her; is that correct, and had a
23 conversation with her?
24 A. Yes. And that was part of easing her, trying to
25 keep her calm, make her feel as though she
would
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
52
1 survive this as long as she cooperated,
but that
2 wasn't his intent.
3 Q. Did he indicate he might take some pictures of
4 her?
5 A. Yes, he did.
6 Q. Or at least he said he told her that?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Ultimately, through the investigation of this
9 case and then the follow-up and after the
10 interviews with Rader and the search of the
11 various places that he had access to, did you
12 ever locate any pictures that were taken of her
13 by Rader?
14 A. No, we did not.
15 Q. Now, when he was telling her this he also
16 relates to you some comments she made, you
know,
17 trying to discourage him; is that correct?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And what did she say?
20 A. She said that she was very sick. And he also
21 told us in his description that the family was
22 sick and he thought they possibly had the
23 measles. She told him that she was sick
and she
24 actually threw up during this incident.
25 Q. Now, when this -- this scene was initially
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
53
1 looked at by crime investigators, it was
2 apparent from her own body and also from
areas
3 in the home that she was, in fact, ill?
4 A. Right. They located vomit on her body and also
5 on the floor.
6 Q. And then in addition to that, this would have
7 been a normal school day, at least for Bud
and
8 Steven, and they were home, as well?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. He described to you what he then did with
11 Ms. Vian; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what did he do?
14 A. He said that he put her on the bed, taped her
15 feet and bound her ankles to the -- to the bed
16 post and tied her up.
17 Q. And he did this because he was afraid she might
18 escape before he was able to complete the full
19 extent of his fantasies?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. There's a crime scene photograph on the screen
22 behind you. What is depicted there?
23 A. That's the bed where the assault took place, as
24 far as her being tied up and murdered.
25 Q. Now, when police first responded, they responded
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
54
1 because the children had escaped; is that
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were able to run to the neighbors?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. When police got there where was Shirley Vian?
7 A. She was still on that bed.
8 Q. Can you describe for us how she was located --
9 laying on that bed?
10 A. She was laying on -- I believe on her back on
11 that bed. The bed, you can see, is pushed
up
12 against the door and that doorway actually
leads
13 to the bathroom. She -- her ankles were
tied.
14 Q. This is the door that leads to the bathroom?
15 A. Yes. Her ankles were tied to the bed post,
16 which would be the head of the bed, and her
head
17 was toward the foot of the bed.
18 Q. Now, the bathroom door, behind that door is
19 where the children were?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'm going to show a photograph that depicts the
22 bindings to just the legs of Shirley Vian there
23 at the home when police found her. Does
that
24 picture accurately show, as you know or kept in
25 police evidence, to reflect how she was bound?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
55
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. And we see in that picture it
3 appears to be some type of a black
substance,
4 what is that?
5 A. That's black electrical tape.
6 Q. And then the white cord is cord?
7 A. Right, it's like a rope.
8 Q. Now, the children, being in the bathroom, did he
9 describe whether or not they remained
quiet and
10 calm?
11 A. Yes, he did. They did not remain quiet and
12 calm, they were yelling, screaming, asking him
13 to -- at one point the children were able to
14 force the door partially open and see what he
15 was doing to their mother. The children
were
16 screaming at him to leave their mother alone
and
17 saying that they were going to escape.
18 Q. And he describes that one of the things he did
19 to calm them down was what?
20 A. He put some toys and a blanket in the bathroom
21 with them.
22 Q. So while he's killing their mother, he throws
23 some toys in for them?
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. Were those toys collected by the police?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
56
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. I'm going to hand you an exhibit, there's a red
3 sticker there, State's Exhibit 18.
Do you see
4 that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And you know -- you've had an opportunity to see
7 this before we walked in here?
8 A. Yes, ma'am.
9 Q. You know what's in this bag?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. What's in this bag?
12 A. There are three toy items in the bag, an
13 airplane, a fire truck and another vehicle.
14 Q. All right. Would you pull them out for us and
15 set them up here.
16 A. (The witness complies with request.)
17 Q. Thank you. Now, these are the toys that the
18 kids were provided by Rader?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And they have a substance on them?
21 A. Yes. That's fingerprint powder that was used in
22 1977 to try to bring up any latent
fingerprints.
23 Q. Because the children were all interviewed to try
24 to find out what happened; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
57
1 Q. And then so you all -- police discovered that
2 they were tied in this bathroom and that
these
3 toys were given to them by the killer of
their
4 mother?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. All right. So possibly they might turn up a
7 fingerprint?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was the fingerprinting successful?
10 A. No.
11
MS. PARKER: State would move for the
12 admission of State's Exhibit 18.
13
THE COURT: Any objection?
14
MR. OSBURN: No objection.
15
THE COURT: All right. Exhibit 18
16 will be admitted.
17
MS. PARKER: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, we talked just a moment about some of the
19 things that he had said to them, but does this
20 picture behind you reflect a crime scene
21 photograph that was taken of the time -- at the
22 time, of the bathroom that the three children
23 were put in and the blankets and the toys you
24 can see on the floor and the cord; is that
25 right?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
58
1 A. Yes, ma'am.
2 Q. If you'll take just a minute and look at this
3 screen, this is a text screen quoting part
of
4 Rader's statement to you; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what does it tell us here?
7 A. Basically Rader told them to stay in the
8 bathroom. One of the children said
that they
9 were going to break out. And Rader
replied to
10 them I don't think you want to -- you want to,
11 I'll shoot you, blow your head off. And
he also
12 said that this upset the children.
13 Q. Did that seem to surprise him, that it would
14 upset them?
15 A. No. I mean, he was very matter of fact about
16 the entire incident, conversation.
17 Q. So one of these -- did he indicate which one it
18 was that may have said that to him? One
of the
19 boys?
20 A. Yes, one of the boys. When he was talking about
21 the boys trying to get out of the bathroom he
22 believed that one of the boys actually was
23 watching him and he believed that that was the
24 oldest boy.
25 Q. Let's talk about that for just a minute. When
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
59
1 these children were interviewed and Steven
--
2 Steven Relford, at six years old, he gave
-- he
3 interviewed with several officers; is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes, he did. Several officers and detectives
6 interviewed Steven over the years.
7 Q. And he described everything that had happened;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. He even described the bag that was carried in by
11 the man?
12 A. Yes, he did.
13 Q. And a physical description of this man?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. And he indicated that he could see what was
16 happening?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. And overall, after you've looked at that and now
19 you look at Rader and you know what he appeared
20 like from other photographs at a younger age,
21 was Steven close in his description and fairly
22 accurate in describing the event, as you know
23 them now?
24 A. Yes. You know, knowing what was reported at the
25 time to the police, what the physical evidence
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
60
1 showed and what Mr. Rader told us during
the
2 interviews, what Steven reported to the
police
3 in 1977 was very accurate.
4 Q. Thank you. This next screen also describes how
5 they were banging on the door and that he
--
6 Rader tells you he could see one of the
boys
7 looking out?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. And what did he tell you one of the boys was
10 saying when he saw him looking out?
11 A. To leave his mother alone.
12 Q. And asked him to get out of there?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Did Rader recognize that the child was trying to
15 get out of that bathroom?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he told you, but he'd already done it to
18 her; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what did that mean?
21 A. Well, I asked him what that mean -- meant. And
22 he said that he'd already strangled her.
23 Q. A couple of crime scene photographs behind you,
24 one is an interior picture, one is an exterior
25 picture of the Vian house. Do you
recognize
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
61
1 what's in the picture on the left?
2 A. On the left is a picture from the inside of the
3 residence of the bathroom window.
The picture
4 on the right is a photograph of that same
window
5 from the outside of the residence.
6 Q. And why is that significant?
7 A. Because according to the interviews that were
8 done in 1977 of the children, Bud broke
out that
9 window and was able to escape and go to a
10 neighbor's house for help.
11 Q. Now, when Rader is describing these various
12 murders and in particular, the murder of
Shirley
13 Vian, he seems to focus on colors; is that
14 correct?
15 A. He has a good memory of what things look like.
16 Q. And so he was trying to describe what she had
17 on. And as you'd said before, that he
noticed
18 that she was sick and he indicated that he'd
19 gotten her some water?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But right after that, at the end of this
22 statement what does he tell you after -- what
he
23 did after he got her some water?
24 A. He came back and finished.
25 Q. And what does I finished mean?
CARRI L. MILES, C.S.R.
62
1 A. That means that he killed her. He strangled her
2 by tying the rope tightly around her neck,
put a
3 plastic bag over her head and also an item
of
4 clothing.
5 Q. I'm going to show you just briefly a graphic
6 photograph, not for viewing by all, of the
face
7 and neck of Shirley Vian. In this
photograph,
8 detective, we can see strangulation
markings?
9 A. Those are ligature marks.
10 Q. Ligature markings, I'm sorry. And then we also
11 see what's been discussed that she was in fact
12 sick and that would be vomit?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Thank you. The sexual part of this killing for
15 him included him removing her clothing; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. He described to you in detail how he taped her
19 hands?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. What did he say abou