1 IN THE EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
DISTRICT COURT, SEDGWICK COUNTY,
KANSAS
2 CRIMINAL DEPARTMENT
3
4 STATE OF KANSAS,
)
)
5 Plaintiff, )
)
6 vs. ) Case No. 05 CR 498
) VOLUME I
7 DENNIS L. RADER,
) WEDNESDAY, 8-17-05
) FIRST A.M. SESSION
8 Defendant. )
9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF SENTENCING PROCEEDINGS
12
13 PROCEEDINGS had before
the Honorable Gregory L.
14 Waller, Judge of Division 5 of the Eighteenth Judicial
15 District of Kansas, on the 17th day of August, 2005.
16
17
APPEARANCES
18
19 The State of Kansas
appeared by and through, Ms.
20 Nola Foulston, District Attorney, Ms. Kim Parker, Chief
21 Deputy District Attorney, Mr. Kevin O'Connor, Deputy
22 District Attorney, and Mr. Aaron Smith, Assitant District
23 Attorney, Sedgwick County Courthouse Annex, 535 North
24 Main, Wichita, Kansas 67203.
25
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
2
1 The Defendant
appeared in person and with counsel,
2 Mr. Charles S. Osburn, Chief Public Defender, and Ms.
3 Sarah McKinnon, Assistant Public Defender, 604 North Main,
4 Suite D, Wichita, Kansas 67203.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
3
1
I N D E X
2
3 State's Witnesses:
DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
4 Special Agent Raymond Lundin 10 5
Special Agent Larry Thomas 36
6
7
8 Defendant's Witnesses:
9 NONE
10
11
12
E X H I B I T S
13
14 For the State: MARKED
OFFERED RECEIVED W/DRAWN
15
16
17
18 For the Defendant:
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
4
1
THE COURT: All right. At this time what's
2 on before the Court, the case captioned
State of
3 Kansas, plaintiff, vs. Dennis L. Rader,
2005 CR 498.
4 We are here this
afternoon for sentencing
5 procedures. Is the State ready?
6
MS. FOULSTON: The State is ready to
7 proceed, your Honor. The State
appears by District
8 Attorney Nola Foulston, by Chief Deputy
District
9 Attorney Kim T. Parker, by Deputy District
Attorney
10 Kevin O'Connor, and by Assistant District
Attorney
11 Aaron Smith.
12
THE COURT: All right. Is the defense
13 ready?
14
MR. OSBURN: We are, your Honor. Mr. Rader
15 appears in person with counsel, Steve Osburn
and Sarah
16 McKinnon.
17
THE COURT: All right, counsel. This
18 morning, as I indicated, we are here for
various
19 sentencing procedures. We are operating
under our
20 law, and then the old sentencing procedure in
regards
21 to nine of the counts. And under the old
sentencing
22 procedure referred to as the Hard-40 for one of
the
23 counts.
24 How does the State
desire to proceed in regards to
25 those sentencing matters? Do you desire
to put on
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
5
1 evidence in regards to the Hard-40, or
evidence in
2 regards to your position relative to the
sentencing of
3 the other counts?
4
MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we would proceed
5 today with the evidence in regards to the
other
6 counts. We will proceed as the
crimes were committed.
7
THE COURT: All right. Well, I will allow
8 for that to occur then.
9 Does either party
desire to make any statements to
10 the Court at this time?
11
MR. SMITH: Your Honor, the State does.
12
THE COURT: All right. Is the defendant
13 going to make a statement at this time?
14
MR. OSBURN: No, your Honor.
15
THE COURT: All right. I'll allow the State
16 to proceed with its statement.
17
MR. SMITH: Thank you, your Honor.
18 As we proceed to
sentencing today, there are
19 certain legal guidelines that the Court is well
aware
20 it must follow in arriving at a just and proper
21 sentence for Mr. Rader.
22 The Kansas Sentencing
Guidelines do set a criteria
23 for the crimes and the sentences for these
crimes that
24 Mr. Rader committed. All of these crimes
occurring
25 before July 1st, 1993. As your Honor is
well aware,
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
6
1 the guiding principles in the State of
Kansas are that
2 your Honor is to affix a lowest minimum
term that, in
3 your opinion, is proper, and a proper
sentence for all
4 of the crimes that Mr. Rader committed.
5 When your Honor
arrives at this lowest minimum
6 terms, there are several factors that you
are to take
7 into consideration. First, the
nature and
8 circumstances of the crime. And your
Honor will hear
9 ample evidence from the witness stand
today, you will
10 receive evidence and hear testimony as to the
nature
11 and circumstances of all 10 homicides that Mr.
Rader
12 committed.
13 The lowest minimum
term, your Honor, that you find
14 is to be found consistent with public safety,
the
15 needs of the defendant, and the seriousness of
all of
16 the homicides that he committed.
17 You are also to take
into account the history, and
18 the character, and the condition of the
defendant, and
19 evidence will be presented -- testimony will be
20 presented that will allow your Honor to make
those
21 necessary findings.
22 There are certain
factors that your Honor is to
23 consider when you decide what the lowest
acceptable
24 minimum term is in this case.
25 The defendant's history
of prior criminal
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
7
1 activity, your Honor. And, your
Honor, we're not only
2 talking about convictions in this case,
but prior
3 crimes that will all speak to his
character, and his
4 history, and condition.
5 The extent of harm
that is caused by the
6 defendant's criminal conduct.
Evidence will be
7 presented and testimony -- and not only
that, but the
8 victims themselves will make statements to
your Honor
9 that will allow you to take into
consideration that
10 extent of harm.
11 Whether the defendant,
Dennis Rader, intended that
12 his criminal conduct would cause or threaten
serious
13 harm. And there will be sufficient
evidence for your
14 Honor to make that determination.
15 The degree of Rader's
provocation, the degree that
16 the defendant was provoked in committing these
crimes.
17 You will find that there is none.
18 Whether there were
substantial grounds that
19 excused his conduct. And, your Honor, you
will find
20 that there are no substantial grounds.
There is
21 nothing to excuse the crimes that Mr. Rader
committed.
22 Whether the victims of
the defendant's criminal
23 conduct induced or facilitated its commission.
And,
24 your Honor, there are none.
25 Whether the defendant
has compensated or will
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
8
1 compensate the victims for the crimes that
he has
2 committed.
3 Your Honor, after
hearing the evidence, seeing the
4 evidence and hearing the testimony, you
will find that
5 there is no compensation that is
sufficient for the
6 victims of his crimes.
7 In the final
homicide, your Honor, the State has
8 asked that the Hard-40 sentence be
imposed. When the
9 Hard-40 sentence is charged and alleged
against a
10 defendant, your Honor must make separate
findings.
11 Those findings are that there are aggravating
factors
12 that outweigh those mitigating factors and that
Mr. --
13 or that Dennis Rader should be sentenced to a
life
14 sentence for the murder of Delores Davis with
no
15 parole eligibility prior to serving 40 years.
16 Dennis Rader was
personally served by the District
17 Attorney of this jurisdiction on May 3rd, 2005,
with a
18 notice of the State's intent to seek the
Hard-40
19 sentence. Dennis Rader waived his jury
trial on that
20 issue at that time.
21 Your Honor, the State
will present testimony and
22 evidence that will show that the aggravating
23 circumstances in this case do outweigh any
mitigating
24 circumstances.
25 The aggravating
circumstances that the State
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
9
1 alleges are that the defendant committed
the crime in
2 order to avoid or prevent a lawful arrest
or
3 prosecution. And that the defendant
committed the
4 crime in an especially heinous, atrocious,
or cruel
5 manner.
6 There is statutory
and case law, your Honor, as to
7 the definitions of heinous and atrocious.
Heinous
8 being extremely wicked or evil.
Atrocious,
9 outrageously wicked and vile. And
cruel, pitiless and
10 designed to inflict a high degree of pain,
11 indifference, or enjoyment of the suffering of
others.
12 The case law in the
State of Kansas, your Honor,
13 indicates that the heinous and atrocious and
cruel
14 manner that the defendant Rader inflicted upon
Delores
15 Davis in this case gave Delores Davis
uncertainty as
16 her fate. She must have been aware of her
fate prior
17 to her death, your Honor.
18 After presentation of
the State's case, after
19 hearing all of the testimony and seeing the
evidence,
20 your Honor, you will find, as the State has
found,
21 that in this case there are no mitigating
22 circumstances.
23 Your Honor, after
hearing all of the testimony and
24 the evidence, you will impose the proper and
just
25 sentence supported by that evidence and
testimony and
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
10
1 justified by the law. And in
imposing that sentence
2 on Dennis Rader, we will be able to close
the chapter
3 on him, and then move on and focus our
attention on
4 those that the attention should be focused
upon, the
5 victims, and their memories, and the
families that
6 loved them.
7 Your Honor, the
State would call to the stand
8 Special Agent Ray Lundin.
9
MS. FOULSTON: Your Honor, are these
10 microphones on?
11
THE COURT: I have no clue.
12
RAYMOND LUNDIN,
13 called as a witness, on behalf of the State, after having
14 been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
15
DIRECT EXAMINATION
16
MR. O'CONNOR: Your Honor, may I proceed?
17 Q. (By Mr. O'Connor) Sir, could you tell the Judge your
18 name, please?
19 A. My name is Raymond Lundin.
20 Q. And, Mr. Lundin, who do you work for?
21 A. I work for the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.
22 Q. And are you a Special -- a Senior Special Agent with
23 the Kansas Department of Investigations?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25
MR. O'CONNOR: Your Honor, there's some
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
11
1 feedback here.
2
THE COURT: I noticed that.
3
MS. FOULSTON: It's disturbing.
4
THE COURT: Is there any way that can be
5 taken care of?
6
MR. O'CONNOR: I don't mind turning them
7 off. I don't think there's going to
be any problem
8 hearing me.
9
THE COURT: I don't think so.
10 Q. (By Mr. O'Connor) You are --
11
THE COURT: Try it now.
12 Q. (By Mr. O'Connor) You are a Special Agent in Charge
13 -- or a Special Agent with the KBI?
14 A. Yes, I am.
15 Q. Now, were you part of the BTK Task Force?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And when did you become a member of the BTK Task
18 Force?
19 A. In March of 2004.
20 Q. And when you became a member of that, were you
21 assigned to any particular case to become
familiar
22 with?
23 A. Yes, I was.
24 Q. And in explaining to the Court, they were divided
25 up -- the cases were actually divided up, and
certain
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
12
1 people were assigned to the cases so that
you could
2 become more familiar with it?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. And did you work with anyone else?
5 A. Yes. I worked with my supervisor, Special Agent In
6 Charge, Larry Thomas.
7 Q. And your duty, again, was to look into, read, become
8 familiar, become kind of the expert, you
and Mr.
9 Thomas, on the Otero homicides?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, sir, there is a photograph up there behind you.
12 Could you tell the Judge what that is a
photograph of?
13 A. It's a photograph of the Otero home located at 803
14 North Edgemoor here in Wichita.
15 Q. I have a laser pointer. Is that the front door of the
16 Otero home?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Now, what is this a photograph of?
19 A. This is a photograph of the rear of the same home
20 there, the Otero home, with the un -- or
detached
21 garage.
22 Q. All right. And that's the garage?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the back door of the home is where the laser
25 pointer is; is that correct?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
13
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. And there is a fence running along, separating the
3 backyard from the area here next to the
street?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Now, as part of what you did in becoming familiar with
6 the case, did you learn about the Otero
family?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you learn about where they had come from, how
9 long they had lived in the residence,
things of that
10 nature?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And in learning that, you went through all of the
13 police reports that were generated back in
1974?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, did you also meet with Charlie and Danny and
16 Carmen Otero at various times?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Now, what is this -- what is this a photograph of?
19 A. This is a photograph of the Otero family. The father,
20 Joseph.
21 Q. And that would be Mr. Otero?
22 A. Yes. His wife, Julie.
23 Q. All right. And who would this be in this photograph?
24 A. It would be Charlie and Danny. That would be
25 Josephine, Carmen, and Little Joey, Joseph,
Junior.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
14
1 Q. Now, this photograph here, this is not a photograph of
2 the Otero family as they would have been
in 1974, this
3 is before 1974?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Mr. Otero is there in an Air Force uniform?
6 A. Yes, he was a member of the United States Air Force.
7 Q. Now, this is another photograph that we have put up.
8 Now, again, it has some names there.
You see Charlie,
9 15 years, and Danny Otero, a 14-year-old,
Carmen back
10 there, 13. This young boy in the front,
who would
11 that be?
12 A. That would be Joseph, Junior or Joey.
13 Q. Now, in speaking with the family -- you've met with
14 the family. I've talked to the family
members.
15 Joseph, Junior, he wasn't known as Joseph,
Junior, he
16 was known as Joey to the family?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, he was.
20 Q. And so what we'll do today -- we'll call him what the
21 family called him. We'll call him Joey.
Okay.
22 A. Very good.
23 Q. And would this be Josephine?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. And, again, in speaking with the family, we know now
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
15
1 that -- we know her, through the case and
through the
2 police reports, as Josephine, but the
family knew her
3 as Josie; is that right?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. So today we'll call her what the family called her,
6 which was Josie. And this is Mrs.
Otero, Julie Otero
7 here?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And, again, Mr. Otero in an Air Force uniform?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And this picture here would be more appropriate to the
12 ages and how the Otero family looked back in
1974?
13 A. Yes, it would.
14 Q. Now, during the course of your investigation, you
15 became familiar with the crime scene. You
looked at
16 all of the reports that were taken,
photographs, all
17 of those types of things?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did you talk to -- were you involved in speaking
20 with Dennis Rader?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. All right. And during the interview with Dennis
23 Rader, did you speak with him --
24
(Counsel for the State confer amongst
25
themselves.)
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
16
1 Q. (By Mr. O'Connor) Now, the -- before we get into
2 that, the Otero family, they were found on
January
3 15th of 1974; is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And could you give a brief -- just a discussion of
6 where Mr. Otero was found in the home?
7 A. Mr. Otero was found in the master bedroom along the --
8 along the foot of the bed lying on the
floor.
9 Q. And where was Mrs. Otero?
10 A. She was found in the same bedroom on the bed kind of
11 lying diagonally across the bed of the master
bedroom.
12 Q. And how about Joey, where was he found?
13 A. Joey was found on the floor in his bedroom that was
14 adjoining to the master bedroom.
15 Q. And where was Josie found?
16 A. Josie was found in the basement.
17 Q. Now, on -- you spoke with -- you spoke with Dennis
18 Rader?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You and Larry Thomas?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you speak with him specifically about the
23 Otero murders?
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 Q. And did you speak with Mr. Otero about how he -- or
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
17
1 did you speak with Mr. Rader about how he
selected the
2 Otero family?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And I have a PowerPoint up there. Did he tell you
5 what drew him to the Otero family?
6 A. Yes, he did. He said that he was -- has always been
7 attracted to Hispanic looking people, dark
eyes, dark
8 hair, dark skin, and that he was
particularly
9 enchanted with young women. And I
think Josie was the
10 one who primarily caught his eye. And he
indicated to
11 us that that was his primary target.
12 Q. Now, what we have up on the PowerPoint is an actual
13 quote of Rader; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And he said he liked a Hispanic-type girl. And then
16 during this interview when you're discussing
how he
17 murdered four individuals, including a
nine-year-old
18 boy and an 11-year-old girl, he said, I guess
Hispanic
19 people just turn me on?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did he tell you -- was he -- the main intention --
22 his main intention of what he was going to do
to the
23 Hispanic-type girl that turned him on?
24 A. He had intents to -- or his intention was he was
25 targeting her for sex.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
18
1 Q. And did he give you any indication at all about Joey
2 or anybody else that he was interested in
in the
3 family?
4 A. Really wasn't aware that there would be -- according
5 to our -- with our interviews with him, he
wasn't sure
6 at the time. He didn't believe that
the males would
7 be home at the time.
8 Q. And there's an actual quote up on the screen. It
9 says, so my main intention was to get her,
Mrs. Otero
10 and the girl. So he indicated to you he
was after
11 Mrs. Otero and the little girl?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So it wasn't that -- the little girl was actually a
14 targeted person to him?
15 A. Yes, she was.
16 Q. And then just he refers to, well, he didn't know about
17 the boy; right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. This interview that took place, it occurred on the day
20 of the arrest; is that right?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And that would have been February 25th?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it took place -- it was -- there was -- it was
25 videotaped; was that right?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
19
1 A. Yes, it was.
2 Q. And there was -- the initial part of that was Mr.
3 Rader was read his Miranda rights?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Lieutenant Landwehr and an FBI agent spoke with
6 him, Agent Morton spoke with him first; is
that
7 correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And then during the course of that time, there was
10 some discussion before he actually admitted he
was --
11 he was the murderer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And at that time Lieutenant Landwehr -- after
14 discussing matters with Rader, he told him that
you
15 were going to come in individually, the
detectives
16 assigned to the cases were going to come in
17 individually and speak with him about each and
every
18 case?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. And that's what was done?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. Now, what we've put up here is a photograph of Mr.
23 Otero and Joey; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Mr. Otero, at the time he was murdered, was 38
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
20
1 years old?
2 A. Yes, he was.
3 Q. And Little Joey he was only nine years old; is that
4 correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And these photographs, that's how Mr. Otero and Joey
7 would have looked back in January of 1974?
8 A. I believe so, yes.
9 Q. Okay. And -- but this is -- these are two
individuals
10 that Rader wasn't particularly interested in;
is that
11 correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Okay. They just happened to be there?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, again, did he tell you -- we talked a little bit
16 about it that he liked Hispanic types, and the
17 Hispanic-type girl, and he was turned on, and
his main
18 intent was to get her, the mom and the girl?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. Did he expound on that? Did he go further on that
21 about who his primary target was?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And what did he -- what did he tell you?
24 A. That Josephine would really be his -- his primary
25 target, because he was attracted to younger
women. I
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
21
1 think is what he called it. I don't
know how you call
2 an 11-year-old a woman, but he said
younger women.
3 Q. Okay. And -- and Josie would actually be a child?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I mean, everybody here would consider Josie a
6 child; --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- is that correct? And he was actually saying
Josie
9 was his -- what he called his primary
target. And we
10 have up here primary target, an original
target.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Now, this is a photograph of Josie when she was --
13 that would be appropriate to when -- what she
would
14 have looked like in 1974?
15 A. I believe so.
16 Q. Okay. And Little Josie, because she's just a little
17 girl, she's only 11 years old; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. There's no mistaking Josie for a woman?
20 A. No.
21 Q. There's no mistaking her for -- even for a teenaged
22 girl?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, during the course of this interview, and in
25 looking through what Mr. Rader had and what he
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
22
1 referred to as his mother lode or his
stash. All
2 right. You found various writings
that Rader had
3 about the Otero family; is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Okay. And how -- what did he refer to this family
6 that he murdered? How did he refer
to them?
7 A. That was his PJ Little-Mex or Project Little-Mex.
8 Q. And these projects, what does the projects mean?
What
9 did that mean to Rader?
10 A. These were his undertakings that he -- the things that
11 he was working on. They were people.
They were, you
12 know, potential victims of his that he would
work on.
13 Some of them he ended up killing, and some of
them he
14 didn't, but --
15 Q. And he had -- he literally had hundreds of projects;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And he kept detailed records about his little
19 projects, didn't he?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. And these projects again -- these projects that Rader
22 called projects, were actually people, living,
23 breathing human beings?
24 A. Yes, they were.
25 Q. And he referred to the Oteros as PJ Little-Mex?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
23
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And the Little-Mex there, when you went through his
3 writings and discovered what he was
talking about,
4 when he's talking about Little-Mex, he's
talking about
5 Josie?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. Because Josie was his primary target?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, did he tell you that he had a premeditated plan?
10 I mean, he had an idea when he went into that
house,
11 did he not?
12 A. Yes, he did.
13 Q. And he probably told you about the idea that he had
14 when he went into that house; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what was his original idea? What was he going to
17 do to Mrs. Otero and Josie?
18 A. He took with him several items that day, including
19 binding materials, tape, rope, weapons,
firearms,
20 knives. Although, during the interview,
at times he
21 was somewhat hesitant saying that, you know, I
had
22 never -- I had never killed anyone before.
Clearly,
23 his words were, you know, that this wasn't a
loss of
24 control. This was something that, you
know, was
25 planned out. He was ready for. And
I believe he had
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
24
1 every intent, even before he entered the
door, of
2 committing this act. I think his
only surprise was
3 that he encountered some difficulties that
he hadn't
4 planned on. I think he had -- I
think he believed
5 that Mrs. Otero and Josie would be home
alone. That
6 her husband and son would not be there.
7 Q. Home alone or home with the -- the little boy might be
8 there -- Joey might be there --
9 A. Right.
10 Q. -- but there wouldn't be any problem?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. We'll get to that later; right? And he took care of
13 all of his problems, did he not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you talked about having with him binding, knives,
16 firearms, cords, things of that nature.
Did Rader
17 have a name for what -- for what all of that
stuff
18 was?
19 A. He referred to it as his kill kit.
20 Q. And a hit kit?
21 A. A hit kit. Later -- he said later, you know, in his
22 criminal career, he had actually bags that he
carried
23 it in. In this episode here, he said that
he carried
24 it in the pockets of his parka, his Air Force
parka
25 that he was wearing that day.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
25
1 Q. Okay. So as he got more experienced, he picked up
on
2 maybe I should have it in a bag or in
other places,
3 but on this occasion, he had it in a
parka. But he
4 had all the stuff he needed to kill
people?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it indicated here -- there is a written -- this is
7 a quote that Rader told you in this
interview, that
8 his plan was to get Mrs. Otero or Josie in
bed and
9 have sex with them and strangle them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so he went in with the plan to rape and to murder?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And to murder by strangle?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, this -- the end of this quote said that -- and
16 this is him talking to you about a family he's
-- he's
17 tying up and going to kill. What does he
say they
18 were doing?
19 A. He ended the quote there that they were freaking out
20 and stuff, which refers to the point where the
family
21 began to realize that he was not there simply
to rob
22 them. When it became clear to them that
he was there
23 to kill them all, and, you know, he seemed
surprised
24 that they had behaved in that way.
25 Q. Now, when he originally went in and confronted the
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
26
1 family in the house, what did he tell
them?
2 A. He told them that he was there to get money, take
3 their car. He, uh -- get some food.
He was on the --
4 he was on the run from the law. And
if they
5 cooperated with him, everything would be
fine.
6 Q. And so this is what he would call -- throughout the
7 interview when he was talking to you and
other law
8 enforcement
OFFICIALs, he would call this his ross;
9 right?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And that he actually meant ruse; right? He had a hard
12 time saying ruse, did he not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, after this saying that the ross -- his little
15 ross wasn't going well and that they figured
out that
16 he was going to kill them, what did he tell you
17 happened? And there's a quote behind you.
18 A. All hell broke loose when they found out I was going
19 after them.
20 Q. Now, this -- one of the targets that he said he wanted
21 to get in bed, have sex with and strangle, was
Julie
22 Otero?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And this picture here, Julie Otero was 34 years old
25 when she was murdered?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
27
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And is this a picture of Mrs. Otero as she would have
3 appeared back in 1974?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. And did Rader tell you how he first got control -- he
6 told them -- going back -- that he was
going to rob
7 them, he was wanted, and he was going to
take their
8 car, and he was going to take their money,
and he said
9 he had to tie them up; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he had -- he had to get control of them, and then
12 he was just going to leave them?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. And did he tell you how he first got control of them,
15 how he first found them?
16 A. He gained access to the house -- he was up working on
17 the -- cutting the telephone line to the house
when, I
18 believe, Joey came out the back door, he
thought
19 letting the dog out. That's when he --
that's when he
20 went inside. He gained control over them.
He
21 brandished a gun. I believe it was a .22
at the time,
22 although he talked about having a magnum with
him
23 also, and gained control over the family that
way.
24 Q. He lied to them, told them he was just there to rob
25 them, when he fully intended to kill them; is
that
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
28
1 correct?
2 A. Yeah, in combination with the show of force.
3 Q. And he bound them first with adhesive tape?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, in Rader's collection, and in his stash, things
6 were found; is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. In plastic baggies, and in other types of packing
9 materials where he could keep his stuff;
is that
10 right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And this is a photograph of some rolls of tape that
13 were found -- was this found in Rader's house?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And there is a quote up there that says, I got
16 him down, put the bag over his head, and he
went
17 ballistic trying to chew a hole in it.
Who does this
18 refer to?
19 A. It's referring to the father, Joseph Otero.
20 Q. And we are going to have some photographs of Mr. Otero
21 coming up. This is a screen that tells
everybody that
22 there is a -- some photographs of Mr. Otero.
23 This is a crime scene
photograph that was taken of
24 Mr. Otero back in 1974; is that correct?
25 A. That's correct.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
29
1 Q. And is this the master bedroom?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And this shows Mr. Otero's legs and his feet; is that
4 right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Okay. And is he bound?
7 A. Yes, his legs -- his feet are bound there by the
8 ankles with rope.
9 Q. Now, what do we have here? Do we see Mr. Otero's
arm,
10 and there's some binding; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And next to Mr. Otero is a -- is a knife; is that
13 correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. This, again, is a crime scene photograph taken back in
16 1974?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Now, on Mr. Otero's wrist, do you see anything that
19 indicates to you that there might have been
some tape
20 on that wrist at one time?
21 A. There appear to be some indentations or ligature
22 marks, as we refer to them. Also, some
white -- the
23 white coloring, which I assume at this point
was left
24 over. Mr. Rader said he bound them with
this white
25 athletic tape. So any time you have that
kind of
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
30
1 athletic tape on you, it does leave kind
of a film on
2 your skin. The knife in the
photograph was one that
3 was brought into the room by Danny, his
son, in an
4 attempt to free his father and to save his
life.
5 Q. Because Danny and Carmen initially discovered their
6 parents in the bedroom when they came home
from
7 school?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And so in an interview with law enforcement, Danny
10 said he cut the bindings off his father, those
11 bindings that appear in the photograph?
12 A. Yes, he did.
13 Q. And Rader told you about what happened -- what Mr.
14 Otero did; is that correct? He said he
was still
15 moving around when he put the bag over him.
He said
16 he went ballistic. He said he put the
coup de grace
17 on him. Is that what Rader said?
18 A. I think that's the way he pronounced it. I assume he
19 meant coup de grace, but his pronunciations are
a
20 little different than most of ours.
21 Q. Well, what he means there when he says coup de grace
22 is he put a T-shirt or some other item like a
plastic
23 bag over his head and latched it down tight,
and
24 continued to -- figured that that would do it
is what
25 he tells you?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
31
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Again, we have some photographs coming up here of Mr.
3 Otero. This is a crime scene
photograph of Mr.
4 Otero's face; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Now, the eyes have been blurred out; is that -- is
7 that right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And that's been done by the District Attorney's
10 Office?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, there again is some -- there was indications in
13 the reports that there was a belt wrapped tight
around
14 Mr. Otero's neck -- or, at least one of the
children,
15 one of the kids said there was, I believe
Charlie?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And he took it off?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Because Charlie arrived home after Danny and Carmen,
20 because he was in high school?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And he took a belt off that was wrapped around his
23 father's neck?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Mr. Otero is bleeding from the nose?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And his lips, what do they appear to you to be,
3 swollen?
4 A. His lips are swollen. The tongue is protruding
5 through his lips. You see that,
quite frequently, in
6 strangulation cases.
7 Q. Now, did -- did he then tell you what he did to Little
8 Joey?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And he said he went over and put a bag over
11 Joey. And when he says here where she
yelled, is he
12 meaning Mrs. Otero?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And so Mrs. Otero was watching as Rader puts a bag
15 over her little boy's head, and she yells, you
killed
16 my boy, you killed my boy. Is that what
Rader tells
17 you she said?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Okay. And then she refers to -- as she's watching him
20 put a bag over her little boy's head, he refers
to it
21 as she just went ballistic. That's what
he said she
22 went ballistic screaming?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And his response to that then was, he told you, and
25 then I went over and strangled her the second
time?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
33
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Had to shut her up, I guess?
3 A. I guess. I could only imagine what she would be
4 doing -- watching her -- you know, any
mother watching
5 her son being -- having his life taken.
6 Q. Now, this graphic photograph again is of Mrs. Otero
7 that's coming to come up next. This,
again, the face
8 has been blurred out, but this is of how
Mrs. Otero
9 appeared when police arrived; is that
correct, when
10 these photographs were taken?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. She's up on the bed, her hands are where?
13 A. Her hands are bound behind her.
14 Q. And her legs are where?
15 A. Hanging over the edge of the bed bound.
16 Q. Now, did Carmen tell law enforcement what she did when
17 she found her mother up in the bed like that?
18 A. Yes. Carmen upon discovery, went to her mother while
19 Danny went to his father, and attempted to free
them
20 and had performed some type of lifesaving
measure.
21 She removed a -- if I recall correctly, she
removed a
22 gag, which was bloodied from her mother, and
found a
23 pair of nail clippers up on the dresser, I
believe,
24 next to the bed, and desperately clipped away
at the
25 bindings that were around her mother's neck.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
34
1 Q. So Carmen, who is just a little girl herself
2 really, --
3 A. 13 years old at the time, so...
4 Q. -- finds her mother like this, and she uses a pair of
5 toenail clippers to cut the gag around her
mother's
6 mouth?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Now, did Rader indicate to you what -- what Josie was
9 doing at the time she was watching --
because she was
10 in this room; is that correct, according to
Rader?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. They were all together in this room when everything
13 you told Judge Waller was happening, all four
of them
14 were in there?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And did he tell you what Josie was doing as she
17 watched what he was doing to her family?
18 A. She was, you know, screaming for her mother. And, as
19 you can only imagine, and I remember how he
kind of
20 callously said, you know, she was over there
yelling,
21 you know, momma, momma, momma, something like
that,
22 and --
23 Q. And during the interview, he actually mimicked a
24 little girl yelling, mommy, mommy, mommy; is
that
25 correct?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
35
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. And that was how he explained to you what Little Josie
3 was doing when she was watching her family
be
4 murdered?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. This photograph here is going to show some
7 strangulation marks on Mrs. Otero; is that
correct,
8 this next photograph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this is a photograph of Mrs. Otero as she's laying
11 in the bed. Her eyes have been blacked
out. And does
12 it show in here the marks that were seen on her
right
13 there in the house?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And those are strangulation marks; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And she is also bleeding from the nose?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And there's blood around the ear and the mouth?
21 A. That's correct.
22
MR. O'CONNOR: May I approach?
23
THE COURT: You may.
24 Q. (By Mr. O'Connor) Now, sir, we've discussed that
25 there was a knife that Danny took in to cut the
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
36
1 bindings off of his father as his father
lay there
2 dead; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was the knife collected -- you're aware that lab
5 investigators went out, specifically Lab
Investigator
6 Ron Eggleston, back in 1974?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And they collected certain items, took photographs
9 that we've seen here?
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. And did they collect a knife that was by Mr. Otero?
12 A. Yes, they did.
13 Q. Could you go ahead -- I've marked this as State's
14 Exhibit No. 9. Could you go ahead and
open that
15 package up?
16
(The witness complies.)
17 Q. And inside State's Exhibit No. 9, the brown envelope,
18 is another sleeve wrapped with evidence and
inside of
19 that is a plastic bag; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And inside the plastic bag is a knife; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And this knife is marked with old evidence tape from
25 the police laboratory, Wichita, Kansas?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
37
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And based upon your knowledge of the case, your study
3 of the reports and looking at the
photographs, this is
4 the knife that was found laying next to
Mr. Otero back
5 on January 15th of 1974?
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7
MR. O'CONNOR: Your Honor, at this time I
8 move to admit State's Exhibit No. 9.
9
MR. OSBURN: Your Honor --
10
THE COURT: Any objection?
11
MR. OSBURN: -- I'll object to the
12 relevance. That's the knife used by the
boy. I don't
13 know how it's relevant to what Mr. Rader did
that day.
14
THE COURT: I'll overrule in regards to the
15 relevancy objection and allow for the
admittance.
16 Q. (By Mr. O'Connor) Now, I have marked as State's
17 Exhibit No. 10; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the gag that you described that Carmen cut off of
20 her mother with toenail clippers was that
collected by
21 Lab Investigator Eggleston or another lab
investigator
22 that went out there?
23 A. It was.
24 Q. And I am opening State's Exhibit No. 10, and inside
25 that bag there is some plastic bags with an old
white
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
38
1 and red Wichita police evidence tape; is
that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Could you go ahead and reach in and pull out the items
4 that are in this bag?
5
(The witness complies.)
6 Q. And you have removed one, the plastic bag with the
7 evidence tape?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then you have also removed an item that appears to
10 have blood all over it; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And are you, based upon your review of the case, your
13 knowledge of the case, looking at the lab
14 investigators' reports and other evidence, is
this the
15 gag that Carmen removed from her mother?
16 A. I believe it is.
17 Q. You can go ahead and put that in -- put it back in the
18 bag, I mean.
19
MR. O'CONNOR: Your Honor, at this time I'd
20 move to admit State's Exhibit No. 10.
21
MR. OSBURN: No objection.
22
THE COURT: All right. I'll allow it to be
23 admitted.
24
MR. O'CONNOR: Your Honor, at this time I do
25 not have any further questions of Agent Lundin.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
39
1
THE COURT: All right. Does the defense
2 desire to ask any questions?
3
MR. OSBURN: No questions, your Honor.
4
THE COURT: All right. May this witness be
5 excused?
6
MR. O'CONNOR: Yes, your Honor.
7
THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You're excused.
8 You may call your
next witness.
9
MR. O'CONNOR: Thank you, your Honor. The
10 State calls Larry Thomas.
11
LARRY THOMAS,
12 called as a witness, on behalf of the State, after having
13 been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
14
DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. O'CONNOR:
16 Q. Sir, could you tell the Judge your name, please?
17 A. My name is Larry Thomas.
18 Q. And, Mr. Thomas, you're with the KBI; is that correct?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And were you assigned with Agent Lundin to work with
21 the BTK Task Force?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And part of your assignment with Agent Lundin was to
24 learn, know the Otero case?
25 A. That is correct.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
40
1 Q. Now, we had a screen up earlier, an introductory
2 screen, and it had you as Special Agent In
Charge
3 Larry Thomas; is that right?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. That's mistaken now. Is that -- that's a mistake?
6 A. It has changed, yes. As of Monday, I'm an Assistant
7 Director.
8 Q. And you've been promoted to Assistant Director of the
9 KBI?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Congratulations.
12 A. Thank you very much, sir.
13 Q. Now, as part of what you did, Agent Lundin, you told
14 us that you learned about the Otero case.
I want to
15 talk to you about the murder of Joey,
specifically
16 about the murders of Joey and Josie Otero.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Now, I have a screen back up behind you.
19 Could you take a moment to read that?
20 A. Yes. His statement, Mr. Rader's statement to us
21 during our questioning was my main targets were
Mrs.
22 Otero and Josephine -- or Josie, as we know her
now by
23 the family. And that Little Joseph was
just -- and
24 hesitated -- and just thought of the word
bystander
25 that reflected his thoughts of him.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
41
1 Q. All right. Somebody that had just got in the way,
2 just happened to be in the wrong place?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, we're going to have a photograph coming up here
5 of how Joey was found. Now, there's
been some
6 testimony presented by Agent Lundin that
the whole
7 family was in one room, was in the master
bedroom.
8 Was Joey taken out of the master bedroom
at one time?
9 A. Yes, he was.
10 Q. And where was he taken to?
11 A. He was taken to a bedroom that we later learned to be
12 his bedroom. It was described as the east
center
13 bedroom, which had bunk beds where he and Danny
slept.
14 Q. And so Rader took Little Joey into another room?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he indicate how Joey was during -- how he was when
17 he was removed from the master bedroom into his
own
18 bedroom?
19 A. Not in detail, just that he took him there. There was
20 discussion of him being a little unstable, but
he did
21 remove him to the bedroom and place him on the
bed.
22 Q. Because as -- what we know from the case, and what
23 Rader told you, is he actually did some
24 suffocation/strangulation of Little Joey in the
master
25 bedroom?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
42
1 A. That is correct. He first put a bag over his head
in
2 the master bedroom, and then, as he said,
flipped it
3 off.
4 Q. He took it off for a minute. He suffocated him for
a
5 while, took it off, put it back on, and
took him into
6 the other room?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Now, this photograph here, is this a photograph of how
9 Joey Otero appeared on January 15th of
1974?
10 A. Yes, it does.
11 Q. Now, it has -- it has various bags over his head; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And T-shirts?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Take a moment to read that to yourself.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That statement there, did that statement come from
19 Rader?
20 A. Yes, it did.
21 Q. All right. And did he tell you what he did to Joey,
22 this nine-year-old boy?
23 A. Yes. After the experience with Mr. Otero, trying to
24 make a hole in the plastic bag to get air
inside, he
25 learned that he would have to keep him from
being able
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
43
1 to chew a hole or poke a hole in the
plastic, so he
2 started with the T-shirt to prevent him
from being
3 able to chew through the bag, and then a
plastic bag
4 with some type of a rope to restrict the
bag around
5 his neck.
6 Q. Okay. So he had made a mistake with Mr. Otero.
Mr.
7 Otero desperately tried to chew his way
out of the
8 bag; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's what Rader told you?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. So he wasn't going to make the same mistake with the
13 little boy?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And so he wrapped his head with a T-shirt first?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And then put a plastic bag over the head?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then to be extra careful in killing this little
20 boy, he put another T-shirt on top of that?
21 A. Yes. There was two T-shirts and one bag.
22 Q. To ensure, as Rader said, that last comment, what did
23 he tell you?
24 A. He couldn't breathe through it so he couldn't chew
25 through it.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
44
1 Q. And then what did Rader tell you he did as this little
2 boy died?
3 A. There was a chair that we later determined -- or was
4 later determined had been brought in from
another
5 room, and it had been placed just inside
the doorway
6 facing the bed and the floor in front of
the bed. And
7 he says that he put the chair there to
watch him.
8 Q. Now, where did he tell you he first put Joey when he
9 brought him into the room?
10 A. He says that he put him on the bed and that Joey
11 rolled off and expired on the floor, as he
said.
12 Q. And Rader sat there and watched this little boy die?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And even pulled a chair up --
15 A. Yes, --
16 Q. -- for himself?
17 A. -- he did add the chair to the room.
18 Q. Now, this is another crime scene photograph of Joey.
19 This is a photograph of him. Is that how
he would
20 have appeared to Rader as Rader sat in the
chair and
21 watched him die?
22 A. Yes, that is the location that Joey was discovered in
23 at the crime scene.
24 Q. It would at least be consistent with how Little Joey
25 would have appeared to Rader?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
45
1 A. That was the way he was found at the crime scene, yes.
2 Q. Now, people -- you've gone to seminars; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And seminars where you've had actually experts talk
6 about how somebody suffocates, dies, and
people are
7 strangled?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It's not a pleasant sight. Would that be a fair
10 comment?
11 A. It's not a pleasant sight, and it's not a quick manner
12 of death.
13 Q. Okay. And Joey, based upon your experience in going
14 to these seminars and hearing experts speak,
would
15 have kicked?
16 A. Yes. There would be movements by the body. Some
17 voluntary, trying to move and free yourself,
and then,
18 as you succumb to the asphyxiation, there would
be
19 involuntary movements as well.
20 Q. Now, did Rader talk to you during this interview about
21 how hard it was for him to actually strangle
people?
22 A. He did state that it was the first time that he had
23 attempted to strangle people, as opposed to
dogs and
24 cats, and that he was surprised as to how much
25 pressure it took and how hard it was to do it.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
46
1 Q. Now, there's a quote up there behind -- is that a
2 quote that Rader made to you?
3 A. Yes, that is one of his statements to me.
4 Q. And he indicated to you that if you don't strangle a
5 person long enough, they're going to come
back?
6 A. They can come back, yes.
7 Q. And, in this particular case, based upon what Rader
8 told you, they, in fact, did come back at
certain
9 times?
10 A. Yes, according to his statement to us, they did.
11 Q. Now, again, this is going to be a crime scene
12 photograph of Mr. Otero and Mrs. Otero.
This is from
13 a little bit of a different angle. You
see Mr. Otero
14 lying there in front of the door. That's
the door
15 into the bedroom; correct, --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- that I'm showing?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it shows Mrs. Otero on the bed?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does this picture show how close -- this room wasn't
22 extremely large, was it?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And so four individuals in there, they would all be
25 pretty close to one another?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
47
1 A. Yes, it was a close-fitting room with the furniture.
2 Q. Now, did Rader complain about how -- that he had some
3 problems with Josephine Otero with her
hair?
4 A. Yes. He had commented that he had taken adhesive
tape
5 and that with Josie's long hair, it was
creating a
6 problem for him to try to restrict her and
to place a
7 gag in her mouth.
8 Q. And there is a quote, if you would take a moment to
9 read it to yourself.
10 A. Yes, that is one of his statements to me.
11 Q. And Rader describes to you what Josie was saying to
12 him when he was strangling her; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was Little Josie saying when he was
15 strangling her?
16 A. She cried out for her mother.
17 Q. And, again, there's been some testimony that -- when
18 he talked about what Josie would say, would he
mimic a
19 little girl?
20 A. Yes. He would -- he actually would change his voice
21 to mimic the voice, and, also, use some
animation of
22 his body to show the positions of the bodies.
23 Q. And so when he'd describe it, he'd actually get up and
24 demonstrate it; right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
48
1 Q. And during the course of this interview, did it appear
2 to you that he seemed to be extremely
proud of what he
3 had done?
4 A. Yes, it was very matter of fact, and used the
5 animation, and, also, drawing pictures to
help
6 illustrate the details.
7 Q. And we're up to a point where we have talked about Mr.
8 Otero, Mrs. Otero, Joey, and we're now
talking about
9 Josie a little bit. At any time up
to this point, did
10 Mr. Rader exhibit any -- any kind of remorse
11 whatsoever?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay. And now we're talking about Josie, did he tell
14 you what he had planned for Josie?
15 A. He intended to hang Josie.
16 Q. And what did he call -- if you could look behind you
17 again at the screen. First of all, read
that to
18 yourself. Let us know if that's something
Rader told
19 you in the interview.
20 A. Yes, that is his statement.
21 Q. Okay. And so what did he call the killing of Josie?
22 What was that going to be?
23 A. It was going to be his encore.
24 Q. All right. So that was an encore he was going to do,
25 he was going to do what to her?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
49
1 A. He was going to hang her and probably masturbate,
2 which he did.
3 Q. Now, in this statement to you, he indicates to her he
4 was going to hang her no matter what,
whether she was
5 dead or alive?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Did he give you any indication that she was dead or
8 alive?
9 A. He indicated that she had come back -- woke up was his
10 words, and so then he decided to take her
downstairs
11 and hang her. And she was a little
unstable, but he
12 said that he believes that she walked down with
some
13 assistance from him.
14 Q. And, in fact, that's going to be better for him, too,
15 because he would rather have her alive and hang
her
16 and watch her die; is that correct?
17 A. In most cases that would enhance the fantasy and the
18 sexual gratification.
19 Q. Now, did he indicate to you -- was he able to describe
20 to you what Josie was telling him or talking to
him
21 about when he was preparing to hang her?
22 A. As they went to the basement, he had -- he had removed
23 some of her clothing and retied her. He
commented
24 that he may -- he didn't have sex with her.
He may
25 have touched her or felt on her a little bit.
He had
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
50
1 already prepared -- went downstairs and
discovered the
2 sewer pipe that would -- he would suspend
the rope
3 over. And he said he had the rope
prepared. As he
4 walked her over toward that position, he
first asked
5 for a camera, because he wanted to take a
picture.
6 And she responded that she did not have a
camera. And
7 she then asked, what's going to happen to
me? And he
8 told her that she would soon be in heaven
with the
9 others.
10 Q. And so he told this little girl that he was going to
11 kill her?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And before he does that, he asks for a camera so he
14 can take a picture?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He didn't -- he didn't get a camera from the little
17 girl, though, did he?
18 A. No, he did not.
19 Q. Now, there are some photographs here that are going to
20 depict Josie down in the basement. This
is a crime
21 scene photograph of Josie as she appeared down
in the
22 basement.
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Okay. And she is -- she has a gag over her mouth; is
25 that correct?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
51
1 A. Yes, she does.
2 Q. And her lips were swollen in that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And her tongue was -- what about her tongue?
5 A. Her tongue was protruding aside of the gag.
6 Q. Now, did you specifically ask Rader why he took Josie
7 to the basement?
8 A. We asked -- during the course of his explanation of
9 this particular crime scene -- why he
chose the
10 basement.
11 Q. And there is a quote behind you from Rader about his
12 fascination with bondage in a basement; is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes, that is his statement.
15 Q. Okay. And he indicated to you it's the best place to
16 hang somebody because it's solid?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it's like a dungeon?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And he indicated to you that at his parents' house,
21 his folks' home, as he calls it, he would do --
he
22 would do this when they weren't around?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Okay. He'd find -- there was a sewer pipe down in his
25 basement that was similar to the one in the
Oteros?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
52
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, did you find anything in his stash -- or what he
3 would call his mother lode -- that
supported this
4 statement here, that he actually hung
himself in his
5 parents' basement?
6 A. Yes. There were photographs.
7 Q. Now, this is a photograph here to my left. It is a
8 Polaroid photograph, the one I have the
cursor on; is
9 that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And this was located in Rader's stash?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. And who is this person here that's wearing
14 women's panty hose, has binding over him, has a
gag
15 over him, and is wearing a women's bra?
Who is that?
16 A. That's Dennis Rader.
17 Q. And is he down in his parents' basement, we believe?
18 A. From looking at the comparison of the photograph from
19 the crime scene and the photograph where Rader
is in
20 this position, it appears to be the same
location, and
21 would be considered the folks' home, as he
called it.
22 Q. And this -- what we have there is you have the
23 basement come down with a circle in the
Polaroid
24 photograph, you have the stairway coming down;
is that
25 correct?
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
53
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And this is in a basement, nonetheless, whether it's
3 his parents' or not?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. The photograph on the right side is a crime scene
6 photograph of the sewer pipe in his
parents' basement;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And so he, in this photograph here, dressed
10 himself up in women's clothing and bound
himself; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And you see a cord here coming out there, do
14 you know what that cord is?
15 A. It could be a trip cord for a camera leading to a
16 camera. Without being able to see the
other end,
17 we're not sure, but that would not be uncommon.
18 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that he had prepped his
19 encore, that he actually went down into the
basement,
20 put things together for himself. What did
he tell you
21 about actually hanging Josie?
22 A. After he had placed the rope over her head, he just
23 pulled it up and hung her, and that was it.
He called
24 it a sexual release. He, at that point,
masturbated
25 upon the body.
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
54
1 Q. Now, these items were located when a search warrant
2 was executed at Rader's home, various
ropes and cords
3 and stuff; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, there's going to be some other photographs coming
6 up here that show Josie's ankles and her
hands, how
7 she appeared on -- down in the basement on
January
8 15th of '74. Is this a photograph --
this photograph
9 here, is that a photograph of Josie's legs
and her
10 ankles?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Now, in this photograph, do you see -- you have --
13 what's this around her ankles?
14 A. She has socks on her feet. She has a binding of rope,
15 white cotton rope on her ankles, and that's her
16 panties down around there.
17 Q. And then there's a rope around her knees?
18 A. Yes, there's a rope --
19 Q. The rope is kind of looped at the knee, and then it
20 goes back up to her ank -- her wrists?
21 A. This particular rope, I believe, goes to her waist.
22 Q. Okay. And so as she's bound around the knees and
23 around the waist and around the wrists --
24 A. Yes, and ankles.
25 Q. And down here on the floor, did the lab investigators
JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
55
1 during your review of the scene did they
notice
2 anything on the floor at the feet of
Josephine Otero?
3 A. Yes, they did. They noticed spots on the floor, and
4 they collected samples of that.
5 Q. Now, this photograph here is a frontal view. You
see
6 the panties around Josie's ankles?
7 A. Yes, those are her panties.
8 Q. Now, this -- I don't know if you can see it well, but
9 can you describe to the Judge how she was
hanging?
10 What I mean is, how were her toes in relation
to the
11 floor?
12 A. The crime scene report indicated that her toes were a
13 fraction of an inch off the floor, meaning she
was
14 just very close to the floor.
15 Q. And that would mean that she was able, at least to
16 some point, to keep her tippy-toes on the
floor?
17 A. Yes, as long as she had the strength and
18 consciousness, she would be able to touch her
toes to
19 the floor.
20 Q. And, again, that would increase the suffering that the
21 little girl had?
22 A. Yes, that would increase the time survival interval of
23 her death.
24 Q. Because her toes would eventually -- she would
25 &nbs