1 IN THE EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
   DISTRICT COURT, SEDGWICK COUNTY,
   KANSAS
 2 CRIMINAL DEPARTMENT
 3
 4  STATE OF KANSAS,              )
               )
 5 Plaintiff,  )
               )
 6 vs.         ) Case No. 05 CR 498
               ) VOLUME I
 7  DENNIS L. RADER,
               ) WEDNESDAY, 8-17-05
               ) FIRST A.M. SESSION
 8 Defendant.  )
 9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF SENTENCING PROCEEDINGS
12
13          PROCEEDINGS had before the Honorable Gregory L.
14  Waller, Judge of Division 5 of the Eighteenth Judicial
15  District of Kansas, on the 17th day of August, 2005.
16
17                          APPEARANCES
18
19          The State of Kansas appeared by and through, Ms.
20  Nola Foulston, District Attorney, Ms. Kim Parker, Chief
21  Deputy District Attorney, Mr. Kevin O'Connor, Deputy
22  District Attorney, and Mr. Aaron Smith, Assitant District
23  Attorney, Sedgwick County Courthouse Annex, 535 North
24  Main, Wichita, Kansas 67203.
25



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR                      
 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            2


 1          The Defendant appeared in person and with counsel,
 2  Mr. Charles S. Osburn, Chief Public Defender, and Ms.
 3  Sarah McKinnon, Assistant Public Defender, 604 North Main,
 4  Suite D, Wichita, Kansas 67203.
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                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR                      
                     OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1                           I N D E X
 2
 3  State's Witnesses:           DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
 4    Special Agent Raymond Lundin    10 5  Special Agent Larry Thomas      36
 6
 7
 8  Defendant's Witnesses:
 9  NONE
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12                        E X H I B I T S
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14  For the State:         MARKED  OFFERED  RECEIVED  W/DRAWN
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18  For the Defendant:
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                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR                      
                     OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            4


 1                THE COURT:  All right.  At this time what's
 2      on before the Court, the case captioned State of
 3      Kansas, plaintiff, vs. Dennis L. Rader, 2005 CR 498.
 4          We are here this afternoon for sentencing
 5      procedures.  Is the State ready?
 6                MS. FOULSTON:  The State is ready to
 7      proceed, your Honor.  The State appears by District
 8      Attorney Nola Foulston, by Chief Deputy District
 9      Attorney Kim T. Parker, by Deputy District Attorney
10      Kevin O'Connor, and by Assistant District Attorney
11      Aaron Smith.
12                THE COURT:  All right.  Is the defense
13      ready?
14                MR. OSBURN:  We are, your Honor.  Mr. Rader
15      appears in person with counsel, Steve Osburn and Sarah
16      McKinnon.
17                THE COURT:  All right, counsel.  This
18      morning, as I indicated, we are here for various
19      sentencing procedures.  We are operating under our
20      law, and then the old sentencing procedure in regards
21      to nine of the counts.  And under the old sentencing
22      procedure referred to as the Hard-40 for one of the
23      counts.
24          How does the State desire to proceed in regards to
25      those sentencing matters?  Do you desire to put on



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR                      
                     OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            5


 1      evidence in regards to the Hard-40, or evidence in
 2      regards to your position relative to the sentencing of
 3      the other counts?
 4                MR. SMITH:  Your Honor, we would proceed
 5      today with the evidence in regards to the other
 6      counts.  We will proceed as the crimes were committed.
 7                THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I will allow
 8      for that to occur then.
 9          Does either party desire to make any statements to
10      the Court at this time?
11                MR. SMITH:  Your Honor, the State does.
12                THE COURT:  All right.  Is the defendant
13      going to make a statement at this time?
14                MR. OSBURN:  No, your Honor.
15                THE COURT:  All right.  I'll allow the State
16      to proceed with its statement.
17                MR. SMITH:  Thank you, your Honor.
18          As we proceed to sentencing today, there are
19      certain legal guidelines that the Court is well aware
20      it must follow in arriving at a just and proper
21      sentence for Mr. Rader.
22          The Kansas Sentencing Guidelines do set a criteria
23      for the crimes and the sentences for these crimes that
24      Mr. Rader committed.  All of these crimes occurring
25      before July 1st, 1993.  As your Honor is well aware,



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR                      
                     OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            6


 1      the guiding principles in the State of Kansas are that
 2      your Honor is to affix a lowest minimum term that, in
 3      your opinion, is proper, and a proper sentence for all
 4      of the crimes that Mr. Rader committed.
 5          When your Honor arrives at this lowest minimum
 6      terms, there are several factors that you are to take
 7      into consideration.  First, the nature and
 8      circumstances of the crime.  And your Honor will hear
 9      ample evidence from the witness stand today, you will
10      receive evidence and hear testimony as to the nature
11      and circumstances of all 10 homicides that Mr. Rader
12      committed.
13          The lowest minimum term, your Honor, that you find
14      is to be found consistent with public safety, the
15      needs of the defendant, and the seriousness of all of
16      the homicides that he committed.
17          You are also to take into account the history, and
18      the character, and the condition of the defendant, and
19      evidence will be presented -- testimony will be
20      presented that will allow your Honor to make those
21      necessary findings.
22          There are certain factors that your Honor is to
23      consider when you decide what the lowest acceptable
24      minimum term is in this case.
25          The defendant's history of prior criminal



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR                      
                    OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            7


 1      activity, your Honor.  And, your Honor, we're not only
 2      talking about convictions in this case, but prior
 3      crimes that will all speak to his character, and his
 4      history, and condition.
 5          The extent of harm that is caused by the
 6      defendant's criminal conduct.  Evidence will be
 7      presented and testimony -- and not only that, but the
 8      victims themselves will make statements to your Honor
 9      that will allow you to take into consideration that
10      extent of harm.
11          Whether the defendant, Dennis Rader, intended that
12      his criminal conduct would cause or threaten serious
13      harm.  And there will be sufficient evidence for your
14      Honor to make that determination.
15          The degree of Rader's provocation, the degree that
16      the defendant was provoked in committing these crimes.
17      You will find that there is none.
18          Whether there were substantial grounds that
19      excused his conduct.  And, your Honor, you will find
20      that there are no substantial grounds.  There is
21      nothing to excuse the crimes that Mr. Rader committed.
22          Whether the victims of the defendant's criminal
23      conduct induced or facilitated its commission.  And,
24      your Honor, there are none.
25          Whether the defendant has compensated or will



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            8


 1      compensate the victims for the crimes that he has
 2      committed.
 3          Your Honor, after hearing the evidence, seeing the
 4      evidence and hearing the testimony, you will find that
 5      there is no compensation that is sufficient for the
 6      victims of his crimes.
 7          In the final homicide, your Honor, the State has
 8      asked that the Hard-40 sentence be imposed.  When the
 9      Hard-40 sentence is charged and alleged against a
10      defendant, your Honor must make separate findings.
11      Those findings are that there are aggravating factors
12      that outweigh those mitigating factors and that Mr. --
13      or that Dennis Rader should be sentenced to a life
14      sentence for the murder of Delores Davis with no
15      parole eligibility prior to serving 40 years.
16          Dennis Rader was personally served by the District
17      Attorney of this jurisdiction on May 3rd, 2005, with a
18      notice of the State's intent to seek the Hard-40
19      sentence.  Dennis Rader waived his jury trial on that
20      issue at that time.
21          Your Honor, the State will present testimony and
22      evidence that will show that the aggravating
23      circumstances in this case do outweigh any mitigating
24      circumstances.
25          The aggravating circumstances that the State



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            9


 1      alleges are that the defendant committed the crime in
 2      order to avoid or prevent a lawful arrest or
 3      prosecution.  And that the defendant committed the
 4      crime in an especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel
 5      manner.
 6          There is statutory and case law, your Honor, as to
 7      the definitions of heinous and atrocious.  Heinous
 8      being extremely wicked or evil.  Atrocious,
 9      outrageously wicked and vile.  And cruel, pitiless and
10      designed to inflict a high degree of pain,
11      indifference, or enjoyment of the suffering of others.
12          The case law in the State of Kansas, your Honor,
13      indicates that the heinous and atrocious and cruel
14      manner that the defendant Rader inflicted upon Delores
15      Davis in this case gave Delores Davis uncertainty as
16      her fate.  She must have been aware of her fate prior
17      to her death, your Honor.
18          After presentation of the State's case, after
19      hearing all of the testimony and seeing the evidence,
20      your Honor, you will find, as the State has found,
21      that in this case there are no mitigating
22      circumstances.
23          Your Honor, after hearing all of the testimony and
24      the evidence, you will impose the proper and just
25      sentence supported by that evidence and testimony and



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            10


 1      justified by the law.  And in imposing that sentence
 2      on Dennis Rader, we will be able to close the chapter
 3      on him, and then move on and focus our attention on
 4      those that the attention should be focused upon, the
 5      victims, and their memories, and the families that
 6      loved them.
 7          Your Honor, the State would call to the stand
 8      Special Agent Ray Lundin.
 9                MS. FOULSTON:  Your Honor, are these
10      microphones on?
11                THE COURT:  I have no clue.
12                        RAYMOND LUNDIN,
13  called as a witness, on behalf of the State, after having
14  been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
15                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
16                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, may I proceed?
17  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Sir, could you tell the Judge your
18      name, please?
19  A.  My name is Raymond Lundin.
20  Q.  And, Mr. Lundin, who do you work for?
21  A.  I work for the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.
22  Q.  And are you a Special -- a Senior Special Agent with
23      the Kansas Department of Investigations?
24  A.  Yes, sir.
25                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, there's some



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            11


 1      feedback here.
 2                THE COURT:  I noticed that.
 3                MS. FOULSTON:  It's disturbing.
 4                THE COURT:  Is there any way that can be
 5      taken care of?
 6                MR. O'CONNOR:  I don't mind turning them
 7      off.  I don't think there's going to be any problem
 8      hearing me.
 9                THE COURT:  I don't think so.
10  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  You are --
11                THE COURT:  Try it now.
12  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  You are a Special Agent in Charge
13      -- or a Special Agent with the KBI?
14  A.  Yes, I am.
15  Q.  Now, were you part of the BTK Task Force?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  And when did you become a member of the BTK Task
18      Force?
19  A.  In March of 2004.
20  Q.  And when you became a member of that, were you
21      assigned to any particular case to become familiar
22      with?
23  A.  Yes, I was.
24  Q.  And in explaining to the Court, they were divided
25      up -- the cases were actually divided up, and certain



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1      people were assigned to the cases so that you could
 2      become more familiar with it?
 3  A.  Yes, that's correct.
 4  Q.  And did you work with anyone else?
 5  A.  Yes.  I worked with my supervisor, Special Agent In
 6      Charge, Larry Thomas.
 7  Q.  And your duty, again, was to look into, read, become
 8      familiar, become kind of the expert, you and Mr.
 9      Thomas, on the Otero homicides?
10  A.  That's correct.
11  Q.  Now, sir, there is a photograph up there behind you.
12      Could you tell the Judge what that is a photograph of?
13  A.  It's a photograph of the Otero home located at 803
14      North Edgemoor here in Wichita.
15  Q.  I have a laser pointer.  Is that the front door of the
16      Otero home?
17  A.  Yes, it is.
18  Q.  Now, what is this a photograph of?
19  A.  This is a photograph of the rear of the same home
20      there, the Otero home, with the un -- or detached
21      garage.
22  Q.  All right.  And that's the garage?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And the back door of the home is where the laser
25      pointer is; is that correct?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1  A.  Yes, that's correct.
 2  Q.  And there is a fence running along, separating the
 3      backyard from the area here next to the street?
 4  A.  That's correct.
 5  Q.  Now, as part of what you did in becoming familiar with
 6      the case, did you learn about the Otero family?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  And did you learn about where they had come from, how
 9      long they had lived in the residence, things of that
10      nature?
11  A.  Yes, I did.
12  Q.  And in learning that, you went through all of the
13      police reports that were generated back in 1974?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  Now, did you also meet with Charlie and Danny and
16      Carmen Otero at various times?
17  A.  Yes, I did.
18  Q.  Now, what is this -- what is this a photograph of?
19  A.  This is a photograph of the Otero family.  The father,
20      Joseph.
21  Q.  And that would be Mr. Otero?
22  A.  Yes.  His wife, Julie.
23  Q.  All right.  And who would this be in this photograph?
24  A.  It would be Charlie and Danny.  That would be
25      Josephine, Carmen, and Little Joey, Joseph, Junior.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            14


 1  Q.  Now, this photograph here, this is not a photograph of
 2      the Otero family as they would have been in 1974, this
 3      is before 1974?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  And Mr. Otero is there in an Air Force uniform?
 6  A.  Yes, he was a member of the United States Air Force.
 7  Q.  Now, this is another photograph that we have put up.
 8      Now, again, it has some names there.  You see Charlie,
 9      15 years, and Danny Otero, a 14-year-old, Carmen back
10      there, 13.  This young boy in the front, who would
11      that be?
12  A.  That would be Joseph, Junior or Joey.
13  Q.  Now, in speaking with the family -- you've met with
14      the family.  I've talked to the family members.
15      Joseph, Junior, he wasn't known as Joseph, Junior, he
16      was known as Joey to the family?
17  A.  That's correct.
18  Q.  Is that correct?
19  A.  Yes, he was.
20  Q.  And so what we'll do today -- we'll call him what the
21      family called him.  We'll call him Joey.  Okay.
22  A.  Very good.
23  Q.  And would this be Josephine?
24  A.  Yes, it is.
25  Q.  And, again, in speaking with the family, we know now



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1      that -- we know her, through the case and through the
 2      police reports, as Josephine, but the family knew her
 3      as Josie; is that right?
 4  A.  That's correct.
 5  Q.  So today we'll call her what the family called her,
 6      which was Josie.  And this is Mrs. Otero, Julie Otero
 7      here?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  And, again, Mr. Otero in an Air Force uniform?
10  A.  That's correct.
11  Q.  And this picture here would be more appropriate to the
12      ages and how the Otero family looked back in 1974?
13  A.  Yes, it would.
14  Q.  Now, during the course of your investigation, you
15      became familiar with the crime scene.  You looked at
16      all of the reports that were taken, photographs, all
17      of those types of things?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And did you talk to -- were you involved in speaking
20      with Dennis Rader?
21  A.  Yes, I was.
22  Q.  All right.  And during the interview with Dennis
23      Rader, did you speak with him --
24                      (Counsel for the State confer amongst
25                      themselves.)



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Now, the -- before we get into
 2      that, the Otero family, they were found on January
 3      15th of 1974; is that correct?
 4  A.  That's correct.
 5  Q.  And could you give a brief -- just a discussion of
 6      where Mr. Otero was found in the home?
 7  A.  Mr. Otero was found in the master bedroom along the --
 8      along the foot of the bed lying on the floor.
 9  Q.  And where was Mrs. Otero?
10  A.  She was found in the same bedroom on the bed kind of
11      lying diagonally across the bed of the master bedroom.
12  Q.  And how about Joey, where was he found?
13  A.  Joey was found on the floor in his bedroom that was
14      adjoining to the master bedroom.
15  Q.  And where was Josie found?
16  A.  Josie was found in the basement.
17  Q.  Now, on -- you spoke with -- you spoke with Dennis
18      Rader?
19  A.  Yes.
20  Q.  You and Larry Thomas?
21  A.  Yes.
22  Q.  And did you speak with him specifically about the
23      Otero murders?
24  A.  Yes, we did.
25  Q.  And did you speak with Mr. Otero about how he -- or



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1      did you speak with Mr. Rader about how he selected the
 2      Otero family?
 3  A.  Yes, I did.
 4  Q.  And I have a PowerPoint up there.  Did he tell you
 5      what drew him to the Otero family?
 6  A.  Yes, he did.  He said that he was -- has always been
 7      attracted to Hispanic looking people, dark eyes, dark
 8      hair, dark skin, and that he was particularly
 9      enchanted with young women.  And I think Josie was the
10      one who primarily caught his eye.  And he indicated to
11      us that that was his primary target.
12  Q.  Now, what we have up on the PowerPoint is an actual
13      quote of Rader; is that correct?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And he said he liked a Hispanic-type girl.  And then
16      during this interview when you're discussing how he
17      murdered four individuals, including a nine-year-old
18      boy and an 11-year-old girl, he said, I guess Hispanic
19      people just turn me on?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  And did he tell you -- was he -- the main intention --
22      his main intention of what he was going to do to the
23      Hispanic-type girl that turned him on?
24  A.  He had intents to -- or his intention was he was
25      targeting her for sex.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            18


 1  Q.  And did he give you any indication at all about Joey
 2      or anybody else that he was interested in in the
 3      family?
 4  A.  Really wasn't aware that there would be -- according
 5      to our -- with our interviews with him, he wasn't sure
 6      at the time.  He didn't believe that the males would
 7      be home at the time.
 8  Q.  And there's an actual quote up on the screen.  It
 9      says, so my main intention was to get her, Mrs. Otero
10      and the girl.  So he indicated to you he was after
11      Mrs. Otero and the little girl?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  So it wasn't that -- the little girl was actually a
14      targeted person to him?
15  A.  Yes, she was.
16  Q.  And then just he refers to, well, he didn't know about
17      the boy; right?
18  A.  That's correct.
19  Q.  This interview that took place, it occurred on the day
20      of the arrest; is that right?
21  A.  That's correct.
22  Q.  And that would have been February 25th?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And it took place -- it was -- there was -- it was
25      videotaped; was that right?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            19


 1  A.  Yes, it was.
 2  Q.  And there was -- the initial part of that was Mr.
 3      Rader was read his Miranda rights?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  And Lieutenant Landwehr and an FBI agent spoke with
 6      him, Agent Morton spoke with him first; is that
 7      correct?
 8  A.  That's correct.
 9  Q.  And then during the course of that time, there was
10      some discussion before he actually admitted he was --
11      he was the murderer?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  And at that time Lieutenant Landwehr -- after
14      discussing matters with Rader, he told him that you
15      were going to come in individually, the detectives
16      assigned to the cases were going to come in
17      individually and speak with him about each and every
18      case?
19  A.  Yes, he did.
20  Q.  And that's what was done?
21  A.  Yes, it was.
22  Q.  Now, what we've put up here is a photograph of Mr.
23      Otero and Joey; is that right?
24  A.  Yes.
25  Q.  And Mr. Otero, at the time he was murdered, was 38



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            20


 1      years old?
 2  A.  Yes, he was.
 3  Q.  And Little Joey he was only nine years old; is that
 4      correct?
 5  A.  That's correct.
 6  Q.  And these photographs, that's how Mr. Otero and Joey
 7      would have looked back in January of 1974?
 8  A.  I believe so, yes.
 9  Q.  Okay.  And -- but this is -- these are two individuals
10      that Rader wasn't particularly interested in; is that
11      correct?
12  A.  That is correct.
13  Q.  Okay.  They just happened to be there?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  Now, again, did he tell you -- we talked a little bit
16      about it that he liked Hispanic types, and the
17      Hispanic-type girl, and he was turned on, and his main
18      intent was to get her, the mom and the girl?
19  A.  Yes, it was.
20  Q.  Did he expound on that?  Did he go further on that
21      about who his primary target was?
22  A.  Yes.
23  Q.  Okay.  And what did he -- what did he tell you?
24  A.  That Josephine would really be his -- his primary
25      target, because he was attracted to younger women.  I



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            21


 1      think is what he called it.  I don't know how you call
 2      an 11-year-old a woman, but he said younger women.
 3  Q.  Okay.  And -- and Josie would actually be a child?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  I mean, everybody here would consider Josie a
 6      child; --
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  -- is that correct?  And he was actually saying Josie
 9      was his -- what he called his primary target.  And we
10      have up here primary target, an original target.
11  A.  That's correct.
12  Q.  Now, this is a photograph of Josie when she was --
13      that would be appropriate to when -- what she would
14      have looked like in 1974?
15  A.  I believe so.
16  Q.  Okay.  And Little Josie, because she's just a little
17      girl, she's only 11 years old; right?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  There's no mistaking Josie for a woman?
20  A.  No.
21  Q.  There's no mistaking her for -- even for a teenaged
22      girl?
23  A.  No.
24  Q.  Now, during the course of this interview, and in
25      looking through what Mr. Rader had and what he



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            22


 1      referred to as his mother lode or his stash.  All
 2      right.  You found various writings that Rader had
 3      about the Otero family; is that correct?
 4  A.  That's correct.
 5  Q.  Okay.  And how -- what did he refer to this family
 6      that he murdered?  How did he refer to them?
 7  A.  That was his PJ Little-Mex or Project Little-Mex.
 8  Q.  And these projects, what does the projects mean?  What
 9      did that mean to Rader?
10  A.  These were his undertakings that he -- the things that
11      he was working on.  They were people.  They were, you
12      know, potential victims of his that he would work on.
13      Some of them he ended up killing, and some of them he
14      didn't, but --
15  Q.  And he had -- he literally had hundreds of projects;
16      is that correct?
17  A.  Yes, that's correct.
18  Q.  And he kept detailed records about his little
19      projects, didn't he?
20  A.  Yes, he did.
21  Q.  And these projects again -- these projects that Rader
22      called projects, were actually people, living,
23      breathing human beings?
24  A.  Yes, they were.
25  Q.  And he referred to the Oteros as PJ Little-Mex?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            23


 1  A.  That's correct.
 2  Q.  And the Little-Mex there, when you went through his
 3      writings and discovered what he was talking about,
 4      when he's talking about Little-Mex, he's talking about
 5      Josie?
 6  A.  Absolutely.
 7  Q.  Because Josie was his primary target?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  Now, did he tell you that he had a premeditated plan?
10      I mean, he had an idea when he went into that house,
11      did he not?
12  A.  Yes, he did.
13  Q.  And he probably told you about the idea that he had
14      when he went into that house; is that correct?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  And what was his original idea?  What was he going to
17      do to Mrs. Otero and Josie?
18  A.  He took with him several items that day, including
19      binding materials, tape, rope, weapons, firearms,
20      knives.  Although, during the interview, at times he
21      was somewhat hesitant saying that, you know, I had
22      never -- I had never killed anyone before.  Clearly,
23      his words were, you know, that this wasn't a loss of
24      control.  This was something that, you know, was
25      planned out.  He was ready for.  And I believe he had



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            24


 1      every intent, even before he entered the door, of
 2      committing this act.  I think his only surprise was
 3      that he encountered some difficulties that he hadn't
 4      planned on.  I think he had -- I think he believed
 5      that Mrs. Otero and Josie would be home alone.  That
 6      her husband and son would not be there.
 7  Q.  Home alone or home with the -- the little boy might be
 8      there -- Joey might be there --
 9  A.  Right.
10  Q.  -- but there wouldn't be any problem?
11  A.  Right.
12  Q.  We'll get to that later; right?  And he took care of
13      all of his problems, did he not?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And you talked about having with him binding, knives,
16      firearms, cords, things of that nature.  Did Rader
17      have a name for what -- for what all of that stuff
18      was?
19  A.  He referred to it as his kill kit.
20  Q.  And a hit kit?
21  A.  A hit kit.  Later -- he said later, you know, in his
22      criminal career, he had actually bags that he carried
23      it in.  In this episode here, he said that he carried
24      it in the pockets of his parka, his Air Force parka
25      that he was wearing that day.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            25


 1  Q.  Okay.  So as he got more experienced, he picked up on
 2      maybe I should have it in a bag or in other places,
 3      but on this occasion, he had it in a parka.  But he
 4      had all the stuff he needed to kill people?
 5  A.  Yes.
 6  Q.  And it indicated here -- there is a written -- this is
 7      a quote that Rader told you in this interview, that
 8      his plan was to get Mrs. Otero or Josie in bed and
 9      have sex with them and strangle them?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  And so he went in with the plan to rape and to murder?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  And to murder by strangle?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  Now, this -- the end of this quote said that -- and
16      this is him talking to you about a family he's -- he's
17      tying up and going to kill.  What does he say they
18      were doing?
19  A.  He ended the quote there that they were freaking out
20      and stuff, which refers to the point where the family
21      began to realize that he was not there simply to rob
22      them.  When it became clear to them that he was there
23      to kill them all, and, you know, he seemed surprised
24      that they had behaved in that way.
25  Q.  Now, when he originally went in and confronted the



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            26


 1      family in the house, what did he tell them?
 2  A.  He told them that he was there to get money, take
 3      their car.  He, uh -- get some food.  He was on the --
 4      he was on the run from the law.  And if they
 5      cooperated with him, everything would be fine.
 6  Q.  And so this is what he would call -- throughout the
 7      interview when he was talking to you and other law
 8      enforcement
OFFICIALs, he would call this his ross;
 9      right?
10  A.  Yes, that's correct.
11  Q.  And that he actually meant ruse; right?  He had a hard
12      time saying ruse, did he not?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  Now, after this saying that the ross -- his little
15      ross wasn't going well and that they figured out that
16      he was going to kill them, what did he tell you
17      happened?  And there's a quote behind you.
18  A.  All hell broke loose when they found out I was going
19      after them.
20  Q.  Now, this -- one of the targets that he said he wanted
21      to get in bed, have sex with and strangle, was Julie
22      Otero?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And this picture here, Julie Otero was 34 years old
25      when she was murdered?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            27


 1  A.  That's correct.
 2  Q.  And is this a picture of Mrs. Otero as she would have
 3      appeared back in 1974?
 4  A.  I believe so.
 5  Q.  And did Rader tell you how he first got control -- he
 6      told them -- going back -- that he was going to rob
 7      them, he was wanted, and he was going to take their
 8      car, and he was going to take their money, and he said
 9      he had to tie them up; is that correct?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  And he had -- he had to get control of them, and then
12      he was just going to leave them?
13  A.  Right.
14  Q.  And did he tell you how he first got control of them,
15      how he first found them?
16  A.  He gained access to the house -- he was up working on
17      the -- cutting the telephone line to the house when, I
18      believe, Joey came out the back door, he thought
19      letting the dog out.  That's when he -- that's when he
20      went inside.  He gained control over them.  He
21      brandished a gun.  I believe it was a .22 at the time,
22      although he talked about having a magnum with him
23      also, and gained control over the family that way.
24  Q.  He lied to them, told them he was just there to rob
25      them, when he fully intended to kill them; is that



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            28


 1      correct?
 2  A.  Yeah, in combination with the show of force.
 3  Q.  And he bound them first with adhesive tape?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  Now, in Rader's collection, and in his stash, things
 6      were found; is that correct?
 7  A.  That's correct.
 8  Q.  In plastic baggies, and in other types of packing
 9      materials where he could keep his stuff; is that
10      right?
11  A.  That's correct.
12  Q.  And this is a photograph of some rolls of tape that
13      were found -- was this found in Rader's house?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  Okay.  And there is a quote up there that says, I got
16      him down, put the bag over his head, and he went
17      ballistic trying to chew a hole in it.  Who does this
18      refer to?
19  A.  It's referring to the father, Joseph Otero.
20  Q.  And we are going to have some photographs of Mr. Otero
21      coming up.  This is a screen that tells everybody that
22      there is a -- some photographs of Mr. Otero.
23          This is a crime scene photograph that was taken of
24      Mr. Otero back in 1974; is that correct?
25  A.  That's correct.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            29


 1  Q.  And is this the master bedroom?
 2  A.  Yes, it is.
 3  Q.  And this shows Mr. Otero's legs and his feet; is that
 4      right?
 5  A.  That's correct.
 6  Q.  Okay.  And is he bound?
 7  A.  Yes, his legs -- his feet are bound there by the
 8      ankles with rope.
 9  Q.  Now, what do we have here?  Do we see Mr. Otero's arm,
10      and there's some binding; is that correct?
11  A.  That's correct.
12  Q.  And next to Mr. Otero is a -- is a knife; is that
13      correct?
14  A.  That is correct.
15  Q.  This, again, is a crime scene photograph taken back in
16      1974?
17  A.  Yes, it is.
18  Q.  Now, on Mr. Otero's wrist, do you see anything that
19      indicates to you that there might have been some tape
20      on that wrist at one time?
21  A.  There appear to be some indentations or ligature
22      marks, as we refer to them.  Also, some white -- the
23      white coloring, which I assume at this point was left
24      over.  Mr. Rader said he bound them with this white
25      athletic tape.  So any time you have that kind of



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            30


 1      athletic tape on you, it does leave kind of a film on
 2      your skin.  The knife in the photograph was one that
 3      was brought into the room by Danny, his son, in an
 4      attempt to free his father and to save his life.
 5  Q.  Because Danny and Carmen initially discovered their
 6      parents in the bedroom when they came home from
 7      school?
 8  A.  That's correct.
 9  Q.  And so in an interview with law enforcement, Danny
10      said he cut the bindings off his father, those
11      bindings that appear in the photograph?
12  A.  Yes, he did.
13  Q.  And Rader told you about what happened -- what Mr.
14      Otero did; is that correct?  He said he was still
15      moving around when he put the bag over him.  He said
16      he went ballistic.  He said he put the coup de grace
17      on him.  Is that what Rader said?
18  A.  I think that's the way he pronounced it.  I assume he
19      meant coup de grace, but his pronunciations are a
20      little different than most of ours.
21  Q.  Well, what he means there when he says coup de grace
22      is he put a T-shirt or some other item like a plastic
23      bag over his head and latched it down tight, and
24      continued to -- figured that that would do it is what
25      he tells you?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            31


 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  Again, we have some photographs coming up here of Mr.
 3      Otero.  This is a crime scene photograph of Mr.
 4      Otero's face; is that correct?
 5  A.  Yes, it is.
 6  Q.  Now, the eyes have been blurred out; is that -- is
 7      that right?
 8  A.  That's correct.
 9  Q.  And that's been done by the District Attorney's
10      Office?
11  A.  Yes.
12  Q.  Now, there again is some -- there was indications in
13      the reports that there was a belt wrapped tight around
14      Mr. Otero's neck -- or, at least one of the children,
15      one of the kids said there was, I believe Charlie?
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  And he took it off?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  Because Charlie arrived home after Danny and Carmen,
20      because he was in high school?
21  A.  That's correct.
22  Q.  And he took a belt off that was wrapped around his
23      father's neck?
24  A.  Yes.
25  Q.  And Mr. Otero is bleeding from the nose?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            32


 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  And his lips, what do they appear to you to be,
 3      swollen?
 4  A.  His lips are swollen.  The tongue is protruding
 5      through his lips.  You see that, quite frequently, in
 6      strangulation cases.
 7  Q.  Now, did -- did he then tell you what he did to Little
 8      Joey?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  Okay.  And he said he went over and put a bag over
11      Joey.  And when he says here where she yelled, is he
12      meaning Mrs. Otero?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  And so Mrs. Otero was watching as Rader puts a bag
15      over her little boy's head, and she yells, you killed
16      my boy, you killed my boy.  Is that what Rader tells
17      you she said?
18  A.  Yes, it is.
19  Q.  Okay.  And then she refers to -- as she's watching him
20      put a bag over her little boy's head, he refers to it
21      as she just went ballistic.  That's what he said she
22      went ballistic screaming?
23  A.  That's correct.
24  Q.  And his response to that then was, he told you, and
25      then I went over and strangled her the second time?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            33


 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  Had to shut her up, I guess?
 3  A.  I guess.  I could only imagine what she would be
 4      doing -- watching her -- you know, any mother watching
 5      her son being -- having his life taken.
 6  Q.  Now, this graphic photograph again is of Mrs. Otero
 7      that's coming to come up next.  This, again, the face
 8      has been blurred out, but this is of how Mrs. Otero
 9      appeared when police arrived; is that correct, when
10      these photographs were taken?
11  A.  Yes.
12  Q.  She's up on the bed, her hands are where?
13  A.  Her hands are bound behind her.
14  Q.  And her legs are where?
15  A.  Hanging over the edge of the bed bound.
16  Q.  Now, did Carmen tell law enforcement what she did when
17      she found her mother up in the bed like that?
18  A.  Yes.  Carmen upon discovery, went to her mother while
19      Danny went to his father, and attempted to free them
20      and had performed some type of lifesaving measure.
21      She removed a -- if I recall correctly, she removed a
22      gag, which was bloodied from her mother, and found a
23      pair of nail clippers up on the dresser, I believe,
24      next to the bed, and desperately clipped away at the
25      bindings that were around her mother's neck.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            34


 1  Q.  So Carmen, who is just a little girl herself
 2      really, --
 3  A.  13 years old at the time, so...
 4  Q.  -- finds her mother like this, and she uses a pair of
 5      toenail clippers to cut the gag around her mother's
 6      mouth?
 7  A.  That's correct.
 8  Q.  Now, did Rader indicate to you what -- what Josie was
 9      doing at the time she was watching -- because she was
10      in this room; is that correct, according to Rader?
11  A.  Yes.
12  Q.  They were all together in this room when everything
13      you told Judge Waller was happening, all four of them
14      were in there?
15  A.  Yes, that's correct.
16  Q.  And did he tell you what Josie was doing as she
17      watched what he was doing to her family?
18  A.  She was, you know, screaming for her mother.  And, as
19      you can only imagine, and I remember how he kind of
20      callously said, you know, she was over there yelling,
21      you know, momma, momma, momma, something like that,
22      and --
23  Q.  And during the interview, he actually mimicked a
24      little girl yelling, mommy, mommy, mommy; is that
25      correct?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            35


 1  A.  Yes, he did.
 2  Q.  And that was how he explained to you what Little Josie
 3      was doing when she was watching her family be
 4      murdered?
 5  A.  That's correct.
 6  Q.  This photograph here is going to show some
 7      strangulation marks on Mrs. Otero; is that correct,
 8      this next photograph?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  And this is a photograph of Mrs. Otero as she's laying
11      in the bed.  Her eyes have been blacked out.  And does
12      it show in here the marks that were seen on her right
13      there in the house?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  Okay.  And those are strangulation marks; is that
16      correct?
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  And she is also bleeding from the nose?
19  A.  Yes.
20  Q.  And there's blood around the ear and the mouth?
21  A.  That's correct.
22                MR. O'CONNOR:  May I approach?
23                THE COURT:  You may.
24  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Now, sir, we've discussed that
25      there was a knife that Danny took in to cut the



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            36


 1      bindings off of his father as his father lay there
 2      dead; correct?
 3  A.  Yes.
 4  Q.  And was the knife collected -- you're aware that lab
 5      investigators went out, specifically Lab Investigator
 6      Ron Eggleston, back in 1974?
 7  A.  Yes.
 8  Q.  And they collected certain items, took photographs
 9      that we've seen here?
10  A.  Yes, they did.
11  Q.  And did they collect a knife that was by Mr. Otero?
12  A.  Yes, they did.
13  Q.  Could you go ahead -- I've marked this as State's
14      Exhibit No. 9.  Could you go ahead and open that
15      package up?
16                      (The witness complies.)
17  Q.  And inside State's Exhibit No. 9, the brown envelope,
18      is another sleeve wrapped with evidence and inside of
19      that is a plastic bag; right?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  And inside the plastic bag is a knife; is that
22      correct?
23  A.  Yes, it is.
24  Q.  And this knife is marked with old evidence tape from
25      the police laboratory, Wichita, Kansas?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            37


 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  And based upon your knowledge of the case, your study
 3      of the reports and looking at the photographs, this is
 4      the knife that was found laying next to Mr. Otero back
 5      on January 15th of 1974?
 6  A.  I believe so, yes.
 7                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, at this time I
 8      move to admit State's Exhibit No. 9.
 9                MR. OSBURN:  Your Honor --
10                THE COURT:  Any objection?
11                MR. OSBURN:  -- I'll object to the
12      relevance.  That's the knife used by the boy.  I don't
13      know how it's relevant to what Mr. Rader did that day.
14                THE COURT:  I'll overrule in regards to the
15      relevancy objection and allow for the admittance.
16  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Now, I have marked as State's
17      Exhibit No. 10; is that correct?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And the gag that you described that Carmen cut off of
20      her mother with toenail clippers was that collected by
21      Lab Investigator Eggleston or another lab investigator
22      that went out there?
23  A.  It was.
24  Q.  And I am opening State's Exhibit No. 10, and inside
25      that bag there is some plastic bags with an old white



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            38


 1      and red Wichita police evidence tape; is that correct?
 2  A.  That's correct.
 3  Q.  Could you go ahead and reach in and pull out the items
 4      that are in this bag?
 5                      (The witness complies.)
 6  Q.  And you have removed one, the plastic bag with the
 7      evidence tape?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  And then you have also removed an item that appears to
10      have blood all over it; is that correct?
11  A.  Yes.
12  Q.  And are you, based upon your review of the case, your
13      knowledge of the case, looking at the lab
14      investigators' reports and other evidence, is this the
15      gag that Carmen removed from her mother?
16  A.  I believe it is.
17  Q.  You can go ahead and put that in -- put it back in the
18      bag, I mean.
19                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, at this time I'd
20      move to admit State's Exhibit No. 10.
21                MR. OSBURN:  No objection.
22                THE COURT:  All right.  I'll allow it to be
23      admitted.
24                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, at this time I do
25      not have any further questions of Agent Lundin.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            39


 1                THE COURT:  All right.  Does the defense
 2      desire to ask any questions?
 3                MR. OSBURN:  No questions, your Honor.
 4                THE COURT:  All right.  May this witness be
 5      excused?
 6                MR. O'CONNOR:  Yes, your Honor.
 7                THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You're excused.
 8          You may call your next witness.
 9                MR. O'CONNOR:  Thank you, your Honor.  The
10      State calls Larry Thomas.
11                         LARRY THOMAS,
12  called as a witness, on behalf of the State, after having
13  been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
14                       DIRECT EXAMINATION
15  BY MR. O'CONNOR:
16  Q.  Sir, could you tell the Judge your name, please?
17  A.  My name is Larry Thomas.
18  Q.  And, Mr. Thomas, you're with the KBI; is that correct?
19  A.  That is correct.
20  Q.  And were you assigned with Agent Lundin to work with
21      the BTK Task Force?
22  A.  Yes, sir.
23  Q.  And part of your assignment with Agent Lundin was to
24      learn, know the Otero case?
25  A.  That is correct.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            40


 1  Q.  Now, we had a screen up earlier, an introductory
 2      screen, and it had you as Special Agent In Charge
 3      Larry Thomas; is that right?
 4  A.  Yes, sir.
 5  Q.  That's mistaken now.  Is that -- that's a mistake?
 6  A.  It has changed, yes.  As of Monday, I'm an Assistant
 7      Director.
 8  Q.  And you've been promoted to Assistant Director of the
 9      KBI?
10  A.  Yes, sir.
11  Q.  Congratulations.
12  A.  Thank you very much, sir.
13  Q.  Now, as part of what you did, Agent Lundin, you told
14      us that you learned about the Otero case.  I want to
15      talk to you about the murder of Joey, specifically
16      about the murders of Joey and Josie Otero.
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  All right.  Now, I have a screen back up behind you.
19      Could you take a moment to read that?
20  A.  Yes.  His statement, Mr. Rader's statement to us
21      during our questioning was my main targets were Mrs.
22      Otero and Josephine -- or Josie, as we know her now by
23      the family.  And that Little Joseph was just -- and
24      hesitated -- and just thought of the word bystander
25      that reflected his thoughts of him.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            41


 1  Q.  All right.  Somebody that had just got in the way,
 2      just happened to be in the wrong place?
 3  A.  Yes.
 4  Q.  Now, we're going to have a photograph coming up here
 5      of how Joey was found.  Now, there's been some
 6      testimony presented by Agent Lundin that the whole
 7      family was in one room, was in the master bedroom.
 8      Was Joey taken out of the master bedroom at one time?
 9  A.  Yes, he was.
10  Q.  And where was he taken to?
11  A.  He was taken to a bedroom that we later learned to be
12      his bedroom.  It was described as the east center
13      bedroom, which had bunk beds where he and Danny slept.
14  Q.  And so Rader took Little Joey into another room?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  Did he indicate how Joey was during -- how he was when
17      he was removed from the master bedroom into his own
18      bedroom?
19  A.  Not in detail, just that he took him there.  There was
20      discussion of him being a little unstable, but he did
21      remove him to the bedroom and place him on the bed.
22  Q.  Because as -- what we know from the case, and what
23      Rader told you, is he actually did some
24      suffocation/strangulation of Little Joey in the master
25      bedroom?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            42


 1  A.  That is correct.  He first put a bag over his head in
 2      the master bedroom, and then, as he said, flipped it
 3      off.
 4  Q.  He took it off for a minute.  He suffocated him for a
 5      while, took it off, put it back on, and took him into
 6      the other room?
 7  A.  Yes, sir.
 8  Q.  Now, this photograph here, is this a photograph of how
 9      Joey Otero appeared on January 15th of 1974?
10  A.  Yes, it does.
11  Q.  Now, it has -- it has various bags over his head; is
12      that correct?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  And T-shirts?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  Okay.  Take a moment to read that to yourself.
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  That statement there, did that statement come from
19      Rader?
20  A.  Yes, it did.
21  Q.  All right.  And did he tell you what he did to Joey,
22      this nine-year-old boy?
23  A.  Yes.  After the experience with Mr. Otero, trying to
24      make a hole in the plastic bag to get air inside, he
25      learned that he would have to keep him from being able



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            43


 1      to chew a hole or poke a hole in the plastic, so he
 2      started with the T-shirt to prevent him from being
 3      able to chew through the bag, and then a plastic bag
 4      with some type of a rope to restrict the bag around
 5      his neck.
 6  Q.  Okay.  So he had made a mistake with Mr. Otero.  Mr.
 7      Otero desperately tried to chew his way out of the
 8      bag; is that correct?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  That's what Rader told you?
11  A.  Correct.
12  Q.  So he wasn't going to make the same mistake with the
13      little boy?
14  A.  Yes.
15  Q.  And so he wrapped his head with a T-shirt first?
16  A.  Correct.
17  Q.  And then put a plastic bag over the head?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And then to be extra careful in killing this little
20      boy, he put another T-shirt on top of that?
21  A.  Yes.  There was two T-shirts and one bag.
22  Q.  To ensure, as Rader said, that last comment, what did
23      he tell you?
24  A.  He couldn't breathe through it so he couldn't chew
25      through it.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            44


 1  Q.  And then what did Rader tell you he did as this little
 2      boy died?
 3  A.  There was a chair that we later determined -- or was
 4      later determined had been brought in from another
 5      room, and it had been placed just inside the doorway
 6      facing the bed and the floor in front of the bed.  And
 7      he says that he put the chair there to watch him.
 8  Q.  Now, where did he tell you he first put Joey when he
 9      brought him into the room?
10  A.  He says that he put him on the bed and that Joey
11      rolled off and expired on the floor, as he said.
12  Q.  And Rader sat there and watched this little boy die?
13  A.  That is correct.
14  Q.  And even pulled a chair up --
15  A.  Yes, --
16  Q.  -- for himself?
17  A.  -- he did add the chair to the room.
18  Q.  Now, this is another crime scene photograph of Joey.
19      This is a photograph of him.  Is that how he would
20      have appeared to Rader as Rader sat in the chair and
21      watched him die?
22  A.  Yes, that is the location that Joey was discovered in
23      at the crime scene.
24  Q.  It would at least be consistent with how Little Joey
25      would have appeared to Rader?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            45


 1  A.  That was the way he was found at the crime scene, yes.
 2  Q.  Now, people -- you've gone to seminars; is that
 3      correct?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  And seminars where you've had actually experts talk
 6      about how somebody suffocates, dies, and people are
 7      strangled?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  It's not a pleasant sight.  Would that be a fair
10      comment?
11  A.  It's not a pleasant sight, and it's not a quick manner
12      of death.
13  Q.  Okay.  And Joey, based upon your experience in going
14      to these seminars and hearing experts speak, would
15      have kicked?
16  A.  Yes.  There would be movements by the body.  Some
17      voluntary, trying to move and free yourself, and then,
18      as you succumb to the asphyxiation, there would be
19      involuntary movements as well.
20  Q.  Now, did Rader talk to you during this interview about
21      how hard it was for him to actually strangle people?
22  A.  He did state that it was the first time that he had
23      attempted to strangle people, as opposed to dogs and
24      cats, and that he was surprised as to how much
25      pressure it took and how hard it was to do it.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            46


 1  Q.  Now, there's a quote up there behind -- is that a
 2      quote that Rader made to you?
 3  A.  Yes, that is one of his statements to me.
 4  Q.  And he indicated to you that if you don't strangle a
 5      person long enough, they're going to come back?
 6  A.  They can come back, yes.
 7  Q.  And, in this particular case, based upon what Rader
 8      told you, they, in fact, did come back at certain
 9      times?
10  A.  Yes, according to his statement to us, they did.
11  Q.  Now, again, this is going to be a crime scene
12      photograph of Mr. Otero and Mrs. Otero.  This is from
13      a little bit of a different angle.  You see Mr. Otero
14      lying there in front of the door.  That's the door
15      into the bedroom; correct, --
16  A.  Yes.
17  Q.  -- that I'm showing?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And it shows Mrs. Otero on the bed?
20  A.  Yes.
21  Q.  Does this picture show how close -- this room wasn't
22      extremely large, was it?
23  A.  No.
24  Q.  And so four individuals in there, they would all be
25      pretty close to one another?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            47


 1  A.  Yes, it was a close-fitting room with the furniture.
 2  Q.  Now, did Rader complain about how -- that he had some
 3      problems with Josephine Otero with her hair?
 4  A.  Yes.  He had commented that he had taken adhesive tape
 5      and that with Josie's long hair, it was creating a
 6      problem for him to try to restrict her and to place a
 7      gag in her mouth.
 8  Q.  And there is a quote, if you would take a moment to
 9      read it to yourself.
10  A.  Yes, that is one of his statements to me.
11  Q.  And Rader describes to you what Josie was saying to
12      him when he was strangling her; is that right?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  And what was Little Josie saying when he was
15      strangling her?
16  A.  She cried out for her mother.
17  Q.  And, again, there's been some testimony that -- when
18      he talked about what Josie would say, would he mimic a
19      little girl?
20  A.  Yes.  He would -- he actually would change his voice
21      to mimic the voice, and, also, use some animation of
22      his body to show the positions of the bodies.
23  Q.  And so when he'd describe it, he'd actually get up and
24      demonstrate it; right?
25  A.  Yes, that's correct.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            48


 1  Q.  And during the course of this interview, did it appear
 2      to you that he seemed to be extremely proud of what he
 3      had done?
 4  A.  Yes, it was very matter of fact, and used the
 5      animation, and, also, drawing pictures to help
 6      illustrate the details.
 7  Q.  And we're up to a point where we have talked about Mr.
 8      Otero, Mrs. Otero, Joey, and we're now talking about
 9      Josie a little bit.  At any time up to this point, did
10      Mr. Rader exhibit any -- any kind of remorse
11      whatsoever?
12  A.  No, sir.
13  Q.  Okay.  And now we're talking about Josie, did he tell
14      you what he had planned for Josie?
15  A.  He intended to hang Josie.
16  Q.  And what did he call -- if you could look behind you
17      again at the screen.  First of all, read that to
18      yourself.  Let us know if that's something Rader told
19      you in the interview.
20  A.  Yes, that is his statement.
21  Q.  Okay.  And so what did he call the killing of Josie?
22      What was that going to be?
23  A.  It was going to be his encore.
24  Q.  All right.  So that was an encore he was going to do,
25      he was going to do what to her?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            49


 1  A.  He was going to hang her and probably masturbate,
 2      which he did.
 3  Q.  Now, in this statement to you, he indicates to her he
 4      was going to hang her no matter what, whether she was
 5      dead or alive?
 6  A.  Yes, that's correct.
 7  Q.  Did he give you any indication that she was dead or
 8      alive?
 9  A.  He indicated that she had come back -- woke up was his
10      words, and so then he decided to take her downstairs
11      and hang her.  And she was a little unstable, but he
12      said that he believes that she walked down with some
13      assistance from him.
14  Q.  And, in fact, that's going to be better for him, too,
15      because he would rather have her alive and hang her
16      and watch her die; is that correct?
17  A.  In most cases that would enhance the fantasy and the
18      sexual gratification.
19  Q.  Now, did he indicate to you -- was he able to describe
20      to you what Josie was telling him or talking to him
21      about when he was preparing to hang her?
22  A.  As they went to the basement, he had -- he had removed
23      some of her clothing and retied her.  He commented
24      that he may -- he didn't have sex with her.  He may
25      have touched her or felt on her a little bit.  He had



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            50


 1      already prepared -- went downstairs and discovered the
 2      sewer pipe that would -- he would suspend the rope
 3      over.  And he said he had the rope prepared.  As he
 4      walked her over toward that position, he first asked
 5      for a camera, because he wanted to take a picture.
 6      And she responded that she did not have a camera.  And
 7      she then asked, what's going to happen to me?  And he
 8      told her that she would soon be in heaven with the
 9      others.
10  Q.  And so he told this little girl that he was going to
11      kill her?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  And before he does that, he asks for a camera so he
14      can take a picture?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  He didn't -- he didn't get a camera from the little
17      girl, though, did he?
18  A.  No, he did not.
19  Q.  Now, there are some photographs here that are going to
20      depict Josie down in the basement.  This is a crime
21      scene photograph of Josie as she appeared down in the
22      basement.
23  A.  Yes, it is.
24  Q.  Okay.  And she is -- she has a gag over her mouth; is
25      that correct?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            51


 1  A.  Yes, she does.
 2  Q.  And her lips were swollen in that?
 3  A.  Yes.
 4  Q.  And her tongue was -- what about her tongue?
 5  A.  Her tongue was protruding aside of the gag.
 6  Q.  Now, did you specifically ask Rader why he took Josie
 7      to the basement?
 8  A.  We asked -- during the course of his explanation of
 9      this particular crime scene -- why he chose the
10      basement.
11  Q.  And there is a quote behind you from Rader about his
12      fascination with bondage in a basement; is that
13      correct?
14  A.  Yes, that is his statement.
15  Q.  Okay.  And he indicated to you it's the best place to
16      hang somebody because it's solid?
17  A.  Yes.
18  Q.  And it's like a dungeon?
19  A.  Correct.
20  Q.  And he indicated to you that at his parents' house,
21      his folks' home, as he calls it, he would do -- he
22      would do this when they weren't around?
23  A.  Correct.
24  Q.  Okay.  He'd find -- there was a sewer pipe down in his
25      basement that was similar to the one in the Oteros?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            52


 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  Now, did you find anything in his stash -- or what he
 3      would call his mother lode -- that supported this
 4      statement here, that he actually hung himself in his
 5      parents' basement?
 6  A.  Yes.  There were photographs.
 7  Q.  Now, this is a photograph here to my left.  It is a
 8      Polaroid photograph, the one I have the cursor on; is
 9      that right?
10  A.  That's correct.
11  Q.  And this was located in Rader's stash?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  All right.  And who is this person here that's wearing
14      women's panty hose, has binding over him, has a gag
15      over him, and is wearing a women's bra?  Who is that?
16  A.  That's Dennis Rader.
17  Q.  And is he down in his parents' basement, we believe?
18  A.  From looking at the comparison of the photograph from
19      the crime scene and the photograph where Rader is in
20      this position, it appears to be the same location, and
21      would be considered the folks' home, as he called it.
22  Q.  And this -- what we have there is you have the
23      basement come down with a circle in the Polaroid
24      photograph, you have the stairway coming down; is that
25      correct?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            53


 1  A.  Yes.
 2  Q.  And this is in a basement, nonetheless, whether it's
 3      his parents' or not?
 4  A.  That is correct.
 5  Q.  The photograph on the right side is a crime scene
 6      photograph of the sewer pipe in his parents' basement;
 7      is that right?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  Okay.  And so he, in this photograph here, dressed
10      himself up in women's clothing and bound himself; is
11      that right?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  Okay.  And you see a cord here coming out there, do
14      you know what that cord is?
15  A.  It could be a trip cord for a camera leading to a
16      camera.  Without being able to see the other end,
17      we're not sure, but that would not be uncommon.
18  Q.  Now, you indicated earlier that he had prepped his
19      encore, that he actually went down into the basement,
20      put things together for himself.  What did he tell you
21      about actually hanging Josie?
22  A.  After he had placed the rope over her head, he just
23      pulled it up and hung her, and that was it.  He called
24      it a sexual release.  He, at that point, masturbated
25      upon the body.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            54


 1  Q.  Now, these items were located when a search warrant
 2      was executed at Rader's home, various ropes and cords
 3      and stuff; is that correct?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  Now, there's going to be some other photographs coming
 6      up here that show Josie's ankles and her hands, how
 7      she appeared on -- down in the basement on January
 8      15th of '74.  Is this a photograph -- this photograph
 9      here, is that a photograph of Josie's legs and her
10      ankles?
11  A.  Yes, it is.
12  Q.  Now, in this photograph, do you see -- you have --
13      what's this around her ankles?
14  A.  She has socks on her feet.  She has a binding of rope,
15      white cotton rope on her ankles, and that's her
16      panties down around there.
17  Q.  And then there's a rope around her knees?
18  A.  Yes, there's a rope --
19  Q.  The rope is kind of looped at the knee, and then it
20      goes back up to her ank -- her wrists?
21  A.  This particular rope, I believe, goes to her waist.
22  Q.  Okay.  And so as she's bound around the knees and
23      around the waist and around the wrists --
24  A.  Yes, and ankles.
25  Q.  And down here on the floor, did the lab investigators



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            55


 1      during your review of the scene did they notice
 2      anything on the floor at the feet of Josephine Otero?
 3  A.  Yes, they did.  They noticed spots on the floor, and
 4      they collected samples of that.
 5  Q.  Now, this photograph here is a frontal view.  You see
 6      the panties around Josie's ankles?
 7  A.  Yes, those are her panties.
 8  Q.  Now, this -- I don't know if you can see it well, but
 9      can you describe to the Judge how she was hanging?
10      What I mean is, how were her toes in relation to the
11      floor?
12  A.  The crime scene report indicated that her toes were a
13      fraction of an inch off the floor, meaning she was
14      just very close to the floor.
15  Q.  And that would mean that she was able, at least to
16      some point, to keep her tippy-toes on the floor?
17  A.  Yes, as long as she had the strength and
18      consciousness, she would be able to touch her toes to
19      the floor.
20  Q.  And, again, that would increase the suffering that the
21      little girl had?
22  A.  Yes, that would increase the time survival interval of
23      her death.
24  Q.  Because her toes would eventually -- she would
25      eventually give out, and she couldn't stay like that?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            56


 1  A.  Correct.
 2  Q.  And somebody that was interested in watching that and
 3      masturbating to it, that would be more of a thrill for
 4      that person; is that correct?
 5  A.  That is correct.
 6  Q.  To watch that struggle?
 7  A.  Yes, it is.
 8  Q.  And did Rader indicate to you that that's -- he did
 9      enjoy watching Josie die?
10  A.  Yes, he did.  He said it was a sexual release for him.
11  Q.  Now, this photograph here shows the binding of her
12      wrists.  In addition to cord, what else do we see?
13  A.  There is some remnants of what appears to be adhesive
14      tape that was discovered that had been used on her
15      wrists at some point during this crime.
16  Q.  And during the course of your investigation of this
17      case, and in some of the others that you're familiar
18      with, would it be unusual for Rader to bind people
19      with one item and then move to something else once he
20      gained control?
21  A.  That's correct -- that's exactly right.  They first
22      try to use something that's very quick to administer
23      to get that control, and then they will set about
24      increasing the security on the bindings, especially if
25      they intend to do more with the victims and create



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            57


 1      more time and security for themselves.
 2  Q.  And in going back a little bit, there is a -- if you
 3      would take a moment to read this quote.
 4  A.  Yes, I remember that statement from him.
 5  Q.  And, at this point, he's telling you -- when he had
 6      Josie, what did he tell you had happened to the rest
 7      of the family?
 8  A.  He had eliminated the family.
 9  Q.  And that -- he just says, well, so I'll just hang her.
10      He always had a thing for hanging?
11  A.  Yes, that's what he said.
12  Q.  Okay.  Which is indicative, based upon that photo we
13      saw of him wearing women's clothes and underwear, he
14      liked that?
15  A.  Practicing bondage, yes.
16  Q.  And he indicated to you that, boy, if he ever had to
17      be put away, he would want to be hung himself?
18  A.  That was his statement.
19  Q.  But then said to you, I guess they don't do that any
20      more?
21  A.  That's correct.
22  Q.  Now, this again is -- you've already -- you've already
23      talked about that; is that correct?
24  A.  Yes.  This explains the sequence of events from the
25      time he was taking Josie down the steps until he



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            58


 1      killed her.
 2  Q.  Now, there's another photograph coming up here that
 3      shows Josie -- stepping back a little bit -- showing
 4      her from the sewer pipe.  Is that a crime scene
 5      photograph of Josephine Otero?
 6  A.  Yes, it is.
 7  Q.  Now, you talked to him about whether he masturbated
 8      after she died or before he died; is that right?
 9  A.  Before she died, that's right.
10  Q.  And how did he describe what he did when Josie is
11      hanging there in front of him struggling for life?
12  A.  He said that as she was dying is when he grabbed his
13      handkerchief, pulled out -- first, he said his dick,
14      and then I think he changed the word to penis.  But I
15      pulled out my dick, and it went fast -- meaning that
16      he ejaculated.  And he recalls that semen went on the
17      floor, and asked if we found it there.
18  Q.  And he even indicated to you if -- he's asking you if
19      you found it, because he said he even saw?
20  A.  That's correct.
21  Q.  And they did find semen on the floor?
22  A.  Yes, they did.
23                MR. O'CONNOR:  May I approach?
24                THE COURT:  You may.
25  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Now, sir, we talked about what



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            59


 1      Rader did with Joey Otero.  He first put a T-shirt
 2      over his head?
 3  A.  Yes.
 4  Q.  And you're familiar with the police reports that Lab
 5      Investigator Ron Eggleston and others collected items
 6      from the home; is that right?
 7  A.  Yes, I have read those.
 8  Q.  Now, I'm showing you what I have marked as State's
 9      Exhibit 13.  It indicates that there is a white
10      T-shirt in this bag; is that right?
11  A.  Yes, it does.
12  Q.  Now, this bag has been cut open, and if you could --
13      you got some gloves on?
14  A.  A little small, but we'll make it work.
15          First item is a bag with evidence tape attached.
16  Q.  Now, that's old Wichita Police Department evidence
17      tape.  They don't use that anymore, do they?
18  A.  That is correct.  It is an older model.
19          This is a size 16 Jockey T-shirt.
20  Q.  And it has some stains on the shirt; is that correct?
21  A.  Yes, there are stains.
22  Q.  Now, based upon your study of this case, your
23      knowledge of the case, is this the T-shirt that Rader
24      wrapped around Joey's head that day?
25  A.  Yes, it's one of the T-shirts, yes.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            60


 1  Q.  If you could go ahead and wrap that up and put it back
 2      in State's Exhibit 13, please.
 3          Now, State's Exhibit 13, he put a T-shirt over the
 4      head, that would be, again, so he couldn't chew
 5      through the bag that he was going to put on his head?
 6  A.  Yes, a protective layering for that.
 7  Q.  I'm handing you what I've marked as State's
 8      Exhibit No. 12; is that correct?
 9  A.  Yes, it is.
10  Q.  And it indicates it was collected on 803 North
11      Edgemoor?
12  A.  Correct.
13  Q.  If you could again reach in.  It's been cut open.
14  A.  This is a plastic bag with residue from analysis and
15      some markings.
16  Q.  All right.  And it was inside a Ziploc baggy; is that
17      correct?
18  A.  Yes, it was contained in a plastic Ziploc bag.
19  Q.  And then it also has a manila envelope that was inside
20      this lunch bag that's marked as State's Exhibit 12.
21      That is an indication that these items went off at
22      some point to the FBI in Washington and was returned
23      to Wichita Police Department?
24  A.  Yes, that's correct.
25  Q.  Based upon your knowledge of this case, your review of



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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 1      the reports, what is this plastic bag, what relation
 2      does it have to this case -- to Joey?
 3  A.  This would have been the plastic bag used to place
 4      over Joey's head that would have brought about his
 5      suffocation.
 6  Q.  If you could go ahead and put all of that back in the
 7      bag, please.
 8          Now, on top of the plastic bag, Rader told you he
 9      put another T-shirt?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  Okay.  And I've marked State's Exhibit No. 11.  It
12      indicates that in this bag is a blue T-shirt, a Puerto
13      Rico T-shirt.
14  A.  That's correct.
15  Q.  Again, if you could -- this bag has been cut.
16  A.  First item is, again, a plastic packaged bag with the
17      old style of Wichita Police Department evidence tape.
18      This is a blue T-shirt with the words Puerto Rico on
19      the front of it.
20  Q.  And could you hold that up so we can see the Puerto
21      Rico.  It's a kid's shirt, a little boy's shirt --
22  A.  Yes.
23  Q.  -- T-shirt?  And based upon your review of this case,
24      your knowledge of this case, what relation does this
25      item, this Puerto Rico T-shirt have to do with the



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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 1      case?
 2  A.  It was the second T-shirt put over the head of Joseph
 3      -- excuse me -- Joey to make sure that he was
 4      succumbing to the lack of oxygen.
 5  Q.  To make sure he was going to die?
 6  A.  Correct.
 7  Q.  If you could go ahead and put that back in.
 8          Now, as you're doing that, the Oteros, Mr. and
 9      Mrs. Otero, where were they from?
10  A.  They, originally, were in New York.  And then they had
11      tours of duty that took them to Panama and Puerto
12      Rico.
13                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, at this time I'd
14      move to admit State's Exhibits 11, 12, and 13.
15                MR. OSBURN:  No objection, your Honor.
16                THE COURT:  Very well.  They'll be admitted.
17  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Now, sir, I have put in front of
18      you what I have marked as State's Exhibit 14.  This is
19      a plastic Ziploc bag; is that correct?
20  A.  Yes, it is, sir.
21  Q.  And in there is a card; is that right?
22  A.  Yes.
23  Q.  And it has the case number, and it has the name of
24      Detective Eggleston.
25  A.  That's correct.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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 1  Q.  And is there a description of the item in this plastic
 2      bag?
 3  A.  Yes, it says it was the rope that was removed from the
 4      neck of Josephine Otero.
 5  Q.  And then inside the bag there is, of course, a rope?
 6  A.  Yes, a hemp rope.
 7  Q.  And there are items on this rope.  There's an evidence
 8      sticker that you described earlier, an old one?
 9  A.  Yes.
10  Q.  And other items here that indicate that it was sent
11      off for testing at certain times?
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  Now, I've marked State's Exhibit -- this bag is
14      State's Exhibit 15.  It indicates that this item was
15      removed from the body of Josie Otero -- Josephine
16      Otero it says on there.
17  A.  Yes, that's correct.
18  Q.  If you could go ahead and remove that.  Inside the bag
19      that's marked State's Exhibit 15, what did you remove?
20  A.  I removed three items.  One being a plastic packaging
21      material with the Wichita lab evidence tape, the old
22      model.  Another bag that indicated it had been
23      repackaged, that it contained the white-colored pillow
24      case with rope attached on the ends.
25  Q.  And based upon your knowledge of the case and review



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            64


 1      of the facts, this item here, this pillow case was
 2      removed from Josie Otero on January 15th of 1974?
 3  A.  That's correct.
 4  Q.  Go ahead and put that back in.
 5                MR. O'CONNOR:  Your Honor, at this time I'd
 6      move to admit State's Exhibits 14 and 15.
 7                MR. OSBURN:  No objection, your Honor.
 8                THE COURT:  They will be admitted.
 9  Q.  (By Mr. O'Connor)  Now, in addition to what Rader told
10      you in the interview, you also discovered in his stash
11      -- or his mother lode writings that he had made about
12      the Oteros?
13  A.  Yes.
14  Q.  And some of the -- he sent things in, in fact; is that
15      correct?
16  A.  Yes, he did.
17  Q.  There was back in -- in 1974, in October of '74, there
18      was a letter that was obtained from a book in the
19      library.
20  A.  That's correct.
21  Q.  And this letter here described how Rader killed the
22      Otero family?
23  A.  Yes, it did.
24  Q.  He's announcing to the world that he killed the
25      Oteros, and how he did it?



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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 1  A.  Yes, he took complete responsibility.
 2  Q.  And this is the actual letter that was taken from
 3      there?
 4  A.  Yes, it is.
 5  Q.  At the time there were three individuals that had been
 6      arrested on the case?
 7  A.  Yes, they were being questioned and potentially being
 8      charged with the case.
 9  Q.  And Rader wanted to tell you in this -- well, you find
10      out this year that Rader wanted to tell you in this
11      that they had the wrong people, he did it, he laid out
12      where everybody was, and in this writing would it be
13      fair to say that the writer is taking pride in his
14      accomplishments?
15  A.  That would be a fair statement.
16  Q.  Now, this is just a typed copy of it so that you can
17      read, because it's difficult to read; is that correct?
18  A.  Yes, it's the same copy, just rewritten.
19  Q.  It did not appear like this.  It was just typed so
20      that you could read it?
21  A.  Correct.
22  Q.  Now, this is an item that was found on a -- where was
23      this found?
24  A.  This item was found taped in packaging material on the
25      stop sign at 1st and Kansas, I believe, on the



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1      southeast corner of the intersection by the Wichita
 2      Police Department on June the 13th, 2004.
 3  Q.  And it has a photograph of a -- and this is a woman
 4      now hanging, and it says, the sexual thrill is my
 5      bill?
 6  A.  Yes, that's contained in the package.
 7  Q.  This item here in the June posting on the stop sign
 8      it's -- I believe it was -- what did he call it, Death
 9      on a Cold January Morning?
10  A.  That's correct.
11  Q.  And it describes in detail what Rader did to the Otero
12      family?
13  A.  Yes, it does.
14  Q.  And, again, this is the first page of that.  This is
15      how it actually appears in the -- well, actually, this
16      was found in the mother lode; is that right?
17  A.  This copy would have been, yes.
18  Q.  So this is the stuff that Rader had.  He had the
19      original of the mailing that he sent -- or that he put
20      on the stop sign back in June of last year?
21  A.  Yes.
22  Q.  And this, again, is the original of that posting?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And, again, this is the last page of that.  It would
25      indicate -- and did he tell you when he wrote this



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            67


 1      Death on a Cold January Morning?
 2  A.  There was some confusion about the actual date, but
 3      the indication is that it would have been February 3rd
 4      of 1974.
 5  Q.  So this original six-page document that describes how
 6      Rader killed the Otero family, he wrote it a little
 7      bit less than a month after he killed the family?
 8  A.  That's correct.
 9  Q.  And he kept it all these years and sent it in 2004?
10  A.  Yes.
11  Q.  Now, he also sent another item later in the year, last
12      year -- again, well, going back this is the actual
13      drawing that was found in Rader's mother lode; is that
14      right?
15  A.  Yes, with --
16  Q.  Tracing, actually.  He indicated to you he didn't know
17      how to draw very well; is that right?
18  A.  That is correct.
19  Q.  So what he would do is -- what would he do?  How would
20      he get these models?
21  A.  He would use various sources, but he referred to one
22      of his favorite sources of pictures or things that he
23      could trace was referred to as slick ads.  These would
24      be the advertisements that come in the newspaper from
25      different stores, advertising sales, or items for



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1      sale.  And he would take pictures of people, primarily
 2      girls -- or younger girls, and he would use them then
 3      to build one of his tracings adding bondage and
 4      ligatures.
 5  Q.  So he would take an ad, like a Kohl's ad or something
 6      of that nature, find a model on it, cut it out; is
 7      that right?
 8  A.  Yes.
 9  Q.  So stuff that we may look through for a sale or throw
10      away, it excited Rader?
11  A.  Yes, he would, in fact, mount it on a 3 by 5 card --
12      index card and save it.
13  Q.  And then he would use it for things of this nature to
14      show the torture of women, girls?
15  A.  Yes.
16  Q.  Now, in January of this year, a cereal box was found
17      at 69th Street and Seneca?
18  A.  Yes.
19  Q.  And what this box -- contained in the box again was
20      talking about the Otero family; is that right?
21  A.  Yes, it did.
22  Q.  And I believe this mailing he even said -- he was
23      describing what the -- he referred to as chapter nine,
24      his hits?
25  A.  Yes, with reference to PJ Little-Mex.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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 1  Q.  PJ Little-Mex.  And what he does here -- what he sent
 2      in along with it was a -- what exactly is this that
 3      Rader sent in?
 4  A.  Well, the -- part of the items in the box included
 5      this doll that was wrapped in bondage-type wrappings
 6      with rope.  It also depicts a gag in the mouth.  And
 7      then a rope around the neck attached to the PVC pipe
 8      that would a symbol of hanging someone.
 9  Q.  Now, these bindings on this Barbie doll type doll, are
10      they similar or identical to the bindings that Josie
11      Otero had on her when she was discovered?
12  A.  They're very similar to the same bindings that we
13      found on Josie's body at the time.
14  Q.  And what I mean by that, is that they're in the
15      identical locations, that's how she was bound?
16  A.  Yes, that's correct.
17  Q.  On the wrists, around the knees, around the waist,
18      around the ankles?
19  A.  Yes.
20  Q.  And gagged and hanging by a rope?
21  A.  Yes.
22  Q.  To a sewer pipe?
23  A.  Correct.
24  Q.  Now, Rader actually took this little doll here, took
25      clothes off, and actually took the time to draw in



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 1      pubic hair; is that correct?
 2  A.  Yes.
 3  Q.  And he told you he drew that in?
 4  A.  Yes.
 5  Q.  And he also drew maybe some eyelashes, spent some time
 6      of getting this ready so it would appear to be just
 7      like Josie was?
 8  A.  Yes, he personalized the item.
 9  Q.  Now, this also found by the task force in the files in
10      his office there in Park City in the compliance
11      officer -- office that he had.
12  A.  Yes.
13  Q.  And this here is what?
14  A.  This is notes about the occurrences that occurred
15      during his murder of the Otero family.
16  Q.  And, again, he took these notes and then prepared the
17      story that he wanted to tell about killing the Otero
18      family?
19  A.  That's correct.
20  Q.  Now, again, also in his notes there -- in his various
21      writings, because he had a lot of writings, did he
22      not?
23  A.  Yes.
24  Q.  And in there he had what was the determined an AFLV.
25      He liked little acronyms, didn't he?



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 1  A.  Yes, he did.
 2  Q.  He liked to shorten things up?
 3  A.  That's correct.
 4  Q.  Like he used -- what was SBT, if you can recall?
 5  A.  Sparky Big Time.  Sparky, being an erection.
 6  Q.  Now, after this -- it's AFLV, it said Afterlife
 7      Concept of Victim.  What was this all about in his
 8      writings?
 9  A.  It was his fantasies or thoughts of how the victims,
10      in this case in particular, the Otero victims, would
11      serve him in the afterlife.
12  Q.  And he told you what they were going to do for him in
13      the afterlife?
14  A.  Yes.  There was --
15  Q.  Each one of them?
16  A.  Yes.  He had jobs or duties that each would perform.
17  Q.  I believe I put this up.  What was Joseph Otero going
18      to do for Mr. Otero in the afterlife?
19  A.  He was the body guard -- to be the body guard.  Julie
20      was -- would bathe him and be a female servant in the
21      bedroom.  Joey would be the boy servant and male sex
22      toy at times.  And then Josie would be the star young
23      maiden that he would teach sex to and have B/D and S
24      and M with, which would bondage and sadomasochistic
25      acts with.



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
                            72


 1  Q.  Thank you.
 2                MR. O'CONNOR:  I don't have any other
 3      questions.
 4                THE COURT:  All right.  Any
 5      cross-examination?
 6                MR. OSBURN:  No, your Honor.
 7                THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you very much.
 8          May this witness be excused?
 9                MR. O'CONNOR:  Yes, your Honor.
10                THE COURT:  All right, sir, you're excused.
11                THE WITNESS:  Thank you, your Honor.
12                THE COURT:  We'll take a 15-minute recess at
13      this time.
14                       (End of Volume I.)
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                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
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 1                     C E R T I F I C A T E
 2  STATE OF KANSAS  )                     )     ss: 3  SEDGWICK COUNTY  )
 4             I, Janese M. Palmer, a Certified Shorthand
 5  Reporter within and for the State of Kansas, and the
 6 
OFFICIAL Court Reporter for Division V of the District
 7  Court of Sedgwick County, Kansas, do hereby certify that I
 8  was present in my
OFFICIAL capacity on the 17th day of
 9  August, 2005, when the foregoing hearing in the matter of
10  the State of Kansas vs. Dennis L. Rader, Case Number 05 CR
11  498, the sentencing, was heard; that I reported the same
12  in stenographic shorthand; that I later reduced the same
13  to a typewritten transcript of the proceedings had
14  thereon; and that the foregoing is a true and correct
15  transcript of the oral proceedings had and made of record
16  at said hearing.
17             IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
18  and
OFFICIAL seal this 17th day of August, 2005.
19
20
21
22                           ____________________________
                             JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
23                           Certified Shorthand Reporter
                             Registered Professional Reporter
24
25



                     JANESE M. PALMER, CSR, RPR
                      OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER