Fight at Red Parrot nets 9 arrests
JENNIFER BRACKEN, Morning Journal Writer
07/31/2007
LORAIN -- A riot that broke out at Red Parrot Lounge in downtown Lorain Saturday night resulted in nine people being arrested, according to a Lorain police report.
Officers were initially called to 538 Broadway shortly after midnight. The owner of the bar had asked Haydn Baxter, 23, of Elyria, to leave after acting belligerent, the report said. As he walked out of the bar, Baxter picked up a bar stool near the front of the business and threw it through a front window, the report said.
The owner chased Baxter and handcuffed him until police arrived. While questioning Baxter, the crowd inside the bar started to yell obscenities toward the officers.
Ten Lorain police officers responded. Kevin Andruwski, 29, of Elyria, was one of the first men to be arrested. After repeated attempts to get Andruwski under control he was stunned with a Taser, the report said.
Also arrested were Joshua Currier, 27, of Elyria; Mark Anthony Julian, 41, of Lorain; Douglas Strausbaugh, 23, of Irwin; Laura Zawistowski, 23, of Elyria; Sean Fish, 21, of Lorain; Phillip Martin, 23, of Elyria; and Joseph Fish, 23 of Elyria. Charges included disorderly conduct, aggravated riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct by intoxication, resisting arrest, obstructing official business, and vandalism. All were taken to Lorain County Jail.
During the course of the incident, officers said as they repeatedly asked the patrons to disperse to prevent the situation from further escalating. Several of the suspects continued to make obscene remarks to the officers and approached them in an aggressive manner, according to the report.
Attorney Michael Camera, who is representing several of the individuals who were arrested, said according to witnesses, no riot took place that night and the police went into the bar and beat up a bunch of ''kids.''
Lorain police Sgt. James Wolford wrote in his report the Red Parrot Lounge has become a ''nuisance'' to the downtown Lorain area.
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Comments on Morning Journal
Added: Tuesday July 31, 2007 at 08:12 AM EST
Get the facts straight before going to press
There was no riot at the Red Parrot except for the one caused by the Lorain Police Department when they started using taser guns on the club patrons. There was never a fight at the Red Parrot that particular night. Kevin Andrewski (correct spelling) was not one of the first to be arrested, please read the police report more carefully before putting things in writing. I don't see any mention of the Lorain Police Department failing to have a reason to arrest any of the patrons of the Red Parrot with the exception of the lies about a "riot". If people enjoying a musical concert is a riot in the eyes of the Lorain Police Department, I would imagine that all music will have to cease & desist within the Lorain City limits.
Barbara Martin, Elyria, OH
Added: Tuesday July 31, 2007 at 12:22 PM EST
the cops came up in that place all ready to arrest as many kids as they could. they have been annoyed with the red parrot and the kids that go there for some time now. so of course when they got the call they couldn't wait to get in there and slap cuffs on anyone they could. they were getting in alot of the kids faces for no reason so its understandable the kids are going to yell back. there was NO riot. not even close to a riot. they police were definitely in the wrong that night. they went too far. everyone at the red parrot was there for the bands. anyone of age was having a few beers and listening to their friends play. there was no problems UNTILL the cops showed up.
Erin, Elyria, OH
Added: Tuesday July 31, 2007 at 12:56 PM EST
Police brutality
The Lorain Police went above and beyond the call of duty this weekend, but it wasn't in a heroic way. The events that took place at the Red Parrot on Saturday night were most terrifying. Many people were arrested for a supposed riot in the streets when nothing of the sort took place. A normal night out turned into a disaster because the police decided without reason to shut the place down. Anyone that happened to be in attendance were subject to arrest and those that were, ended up being tasered and/or beaten into submission....for no apparent reason.
It was the most terrifying scene I've ever witnessed. Parents, children, business owners, music lovers....all were running for their lives as the police were 'just enforcing the law'. Nobody had a clue as to what was happening.
I beg that everyone please take a closer look into this night and see it for what it really was, and not just what the police report claims it to be. There were no riot and/or disturbance to cause this type of behavior. Our police should be ashamed of their actions for causing such an alarming and frightening night. I feel sorry for the folks who ended up in jail for just being in the 'right' place and the wrong time.- Joshua Vardous
Joshua Vardous, Lorain, OH
Added: Tuesday July 31, 2007 at 01:54 PM EST
Cops went overboard!
This article makes no claim to what the police report says. I think the police overreacted. Gosh.
Heidi Cortes, Columbus, Ohio
Added: Tuesday July 31, 2007 at 01:54 PM EST
One side report from Ms. Bracken. I have been along time reader of the Mornign Journal and am very upset with this article. This is a one sided Police Blotter, not a non-objective article. I would expexct al little more reporting and reserch to be done by the "reporters" of the Journal.
James Pogorelc, Amherst OH
Added: Wednesday August 01, 2007 at 11:09 PM EST
What Riot at Red Parrot?????
This story was based on the false accounts of a police report of the Lorain Police Department. The actual story is that a fight occurred outside of the Red Parrot. The police were called to break up the fight. While the rest of the patrons of the Red Parrot were watching and listening to the local band, 8 to 10 policemen broke into the bar and started arresting anyone they wanted to. One band player was arrested on stage while he was singing and playing the guitar. The list of false arrests is staggering. Innocent people were accosted by the police when they asked what was going on. Innocent people were clubbed, tazared and beated by the police without provocation. Civil rights of those in the Red Parrot were violated. No rights were read or reason for arrests given. This is the case of a police force gone bad. The Lorain Police force caused the so called RIOT if any. The Red Parrot was a scene of chaos after the police stormed the Red Parrot without just cause. The Sgt. of the Lorain Police was reported to have a personal vendetta against the Red Parrot Owner. The plain fact is many innocent people were falsely accused of rioting, intoxication and issuing obcenities without proof only the false statements of the arresting officer. Where is the justice? Where was the Riot at Red Parrot??? The City of Lorain will be sued for false arrests, unjustified tazering and violation of civil rights. Already the City of Lorain has offered to drop the charges of those that were tazared so they will not sue the city. The police officer in charge of this police RIOT should be taken of the force! Where is the justice when the reputations of young adults are ruined by the senseless arrest of innocent people???? Let's stand up for justice in Lorain and stop the police from committing unjustified violence and causing riots.
Ronald Zawistowski, Elyria, Ohio
Story: E-pinions Red Parrot 8.1.07
08/04/2007 03:01:28 AM
military state?
Laura A. Zawistowski was arrested for taking photos of the arrests. Zawistowski had a camera with her when she was arrested, but it was confiscated by police only to be returned with all the pictures deleted. The police report detailing her arrest said Zawistowski told officers she planned to post the images on youtube.com, the popular video-sharing Web site.
Since when was this against the law???? The differing stories can not be resolved now.
The police cars have cameras pointed at us, why can't we do the same? Who is watching the "watchers?" It's time to take back our liberty!!!
sean lorain, ohio
Added: Tuesday August 07, 2007 at 02:51 PM EST
Another "Nuisance" bar in Lorain
Better watch out the "nuisance" word has been used by Lorain Police Sgt James Wolford. I guess the raid to shut it down will be forthcoming. Remember the Flamingo! Sounds like a pattern to me. Unfortunately the Journal will print anything the police say as if it was the gospel truth.
Kenny, Lorain, Oh
Added: Friday August 10, 2007 at 11:32 AM EST
So now what?
I have been going to The Red Parrot now for a couple of years and have NEVER been involved in or seen anything of this magnitude. I cannot understand for the life of me why the so-called Chief of Police would call The Red Parrot a nuisance. For all of the times I've been there watching bands, I've also watched the "POLICE" stalking this venue- and it is a VENUE, NOT JUST A LOUNGE, and I haven't seen anything go as horribly wrong as this did. As far as I'm concerned the majority of the police in Lorain are a nuisance to the Red Parrot,considering they stalk it every weekend.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that being a Police Officer is a difficult job, but there must be a line in the sand that people must cross before being treated as violently as these people were that night; and it was violent!
So now what? Are we supposed to lay down and act as though nothing happened? I don't think so. Are the kids who go to see their friends play there suppose to worry about the Lorain Police barging in to beat,tazer and arrest them for no reason? They will now. Where else do these kids have to go to? NOWHERE!! Maybe next door at "Rise Above", but then what? The kids will be arrested for skating downtown? I guess you can say the Police Chief got his wish. He's been waiting for a chance to drag this place through the mud and now he got it. On the other hand, he may have been the best advertisement The Red Parrot has had in a while, so for that I say THANK YOU!!! See you at future shows Sarge!! Hopefully the crowds will be bigger now!!
Mike F., Lorain, Ohio
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‘Riot’ at club under review
Lisa Roberson | The Chronicle-Telegram
Patrons, owner say Lorain police used excessive force
LORAIN — The Lorain police are reviewing an incident that occurred early Sunday at the Red Parrot Cafe after patrons say police officers busted up a concert using brute force.
Police reports of the night call the incident a riot, saying people were fighting among themselves and with police officers at a bar on the 500 block of Broadway. They arrested nine people.
However, if you talk to those who were there that night — suspects and witnesses — you hear a different story.
“Standing right in front of me was this kid, and very violently, a cop just threw him to the ground and he was already walking out,” said Oberlin resident Andy Cook. “That just came out of nowhere. After they handcuffed him and he was on his stomach, he had a Taser pushed into the center of his back.”
Cook was not arrested that night, but he watched as others were.
A total of three people were hit with Tasers, including a man who was dry stunned in the hip after officers said he was kicking uncontrollably in the back of a police cruiser. He was handcuffed at the time.
Police Lt. Jim Rohner said he is reviewing what happened that night to determine if officers violated policy and procedure in their pursuit to restore order.
The review is not an administrative investigation. Instead, Rohner said he embarked on the review because the outcry from the public has been overwhelming.
Phone calls and e-mails have flooded police Chief Cel Rivera’s office, he said.
“We are not going to investigate complaints of ‘I’m not guilty’ or ‘I didn’t do anything wrong,’ ” he said. “That’s for the courts to determine. The department is not in the habit of investigating and second guessing any officer’s arrest. I’m only looking to see if officers acted outside departmental policy.
“Those are the types of complaints that are always investigated. Guilt or innocence will be adjudicated in court.”
Bar owner Mitch Karczewski described the night as one of the worst displays of police officers abusing their power that he has seen since members of the Ohio National Guard opened fire on a group of college students at Kent State University.
Red Parrot owner Mitch Karczewski
During an interview Friday, the 58-year-old club owner said he simply cannot stay silent about what went on.
“I’m not against the Lorain Police Department. I realize these guys put themselves on the line daily,” Karczewski said. “What I’m against is someone abusing their power to the point where the little guy gets hurt.”
Karczewski’s said about 150 patrons gathered Saturday night at his establishment to see four bands perform.
For several hours, things were fine. But then, right before midnight, a belligerent 23-year-old Elyria man threw a bar stool at another customer and was thrown out of the bar, he said.
Karczewski said that patron, Haydn Baxter, tried to come back and was thrown out a second time. During the struggle that ensued, he broke a large glass window in the doorway, he said.
That’s why Karczewski said he called the police after escorting Baxter outside and putting his own handcuffs on him to make sure he got arrested when police arrived.
Three officers arrived and Baxter was arrested on a charge of vandalism after he admitted to breaking the window, a report said.
Karczewski said he thought officers, who were outside the bar at this time, were done. That was until police Sgt. James Wolford, the shift’s officer-in-charge, arrived and demanded officers shut down the bar.
Up until that point, Karczewski’s version of the events and what the police say happened mirror one another. But then their accounts go in opposite directions.
“I was standing there watching these horrific acts, and I couldn’t believe what was going on,” he said. “My customers were leaving peacefully, and the police started picking on people randomly.”
Rohner said officers only decided to do a walkthrough after seeing people who appeared to be underage milling around. Also, it was their duty to ensure that no one else had a complaint that needed to be addressed, he said.
What they got instead was offensive remarks being hurled their way by intoxicated people that were upset because the band was momentarily told to stop playing, he said. As one band member was arrested, his brother intervened, resulting in his arrest as well, police said.
From that moment on, the seriousness of the situation escalated as patrons began to verbally challenge officers on what they were doing, Rohner said. The 8 to 10 officers inside were overwhelmingly outmanned, he added.
“Our department has zero tolerance when it comes to a large disturbance at a bar,” Rohner said. “Officers are not going to stand there and diffuse a situation by taking one guy outside when the place is going wild. They have to start making arrests.”
Arrests are one thing; three and four officers tackling a guy is another, said an Elyria resident who was at the Lorain bar that night.
“I had a right to know why they were on top of him,” said 27-year-old Joshua Carrier, who asked why a guy nearby was being arrested. “After the police arrived, they came into the bar full force with a vengeance it seemed. Within a few seconds, people were getting tackled and literally beaten up by police.”
Carrier’s interference was met with handcuffs and charges of disorderly conduct persisting and resisting arrest, both of which he called unjustified.
He filed a citizen’s complaint against police Thursday, and he said he will fight the charges.
Two attorneys hired to defend some of those arrested said they expect what really happened that night to come out in the courtroom.
“There was never a fight between any patron, ever, inside or outside the bar,” attorney Mike Camera said.
Camera represents Sean M. Fish, 21, of Lorain, his 23-year-old brother Joseph B. Fish of Elyria, Doug Strausbaugh, 23, of Irwin, Ohio, and Laura A. Zawistowski, 23, also of Lorain.
All four face charges including disorderly conduct persisting, resisting arrest, failure to disperse and aggravated rioting.
All have pleaded not guilty in Lorain Municipal Court. A preliminary hearing is scheduled at 2 p.m. Thursday, at which time Camera said he will present evidence and witness testimony to prove his clients’ innocence.
“I don’t have a client who’s guilty of anything,” Camera said.
Camera said he has an audio recording of what happened and is looking for video. Zawistowski had a camera with her when she was arrested, but it was confiscated by police only to be returned with all the pictures deleted, Camera said.
The report detailing her arrest said Zawistowski told officers she planned to post the images on youtube.com, the popular video-sharing Web site.
“The police have a problem. There were far too many decent people as witnesses to what happened,” Camera said. “They can’t sweep this under the rug.”
Doug Merrill, the attorney representing Kevin Andruwski, said his client jumped up on the stage to avoid the melee and was confronted by a police officer who asked him if he “wanted to go,” Merrill said.
Andruwski said no and put his hands in front of him.
“The next thing he knows, he’s Tasered,” Merrill said.
As Andruwski lay on the ground, Merrill said, officers told him to put his hands behind his back, but an officer was standing on his arm.
“It was definitely one of the more disgusting things I have witnessed in my life,” said Cook, the Oberlin resident who wasn’t arrested. "I really felt like we had no one to go to to help us. It was a frightening experience. I am definitely second-guessing if I would ever want to have an officer help me."
Contact Lisa Roberson at 329-7121 or lroberson@chroniclet.com.
‘Riot’ hearing put on hold
Lisa Roberson | The Chronicle-Telegram
Questions surround arrests at Red Parrot in Lorain last month
Defense attorney Michael Camera (left) accepted a continuance Thursday.
LORAIN — In front of a packed courtroom, Lorain Municipal Court Judge Thomas Elwell Jr. agreed to give a little more time to determine if the charges filed by Lorain police officers against nine adults partying at the Red Parrot Cafe were warranted.
City Prosecutor Jeff Szabo asked for the continuance Thursday afternoon because the July 29 incident is still being investigated by police. Also, he told Elwell he is seeking video and audio recordings of the evening that could shed some light on what happened.
According to police reports, about 10 officers were called to the bar on the 500 block of Broadway just after midnight to remove a belligerent, intoxicated patron who is also accused a breaking a window at the bar. But when they arrived, they not only arrested 23-year-old Haydn Baxter, but went inside and ended up arresting eight more people on charges including aggravated rioting, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct intoxication.
It is those arrests that have fueled outrage.
Those arrested say officers came into the bar determined to shut the place down by any means necessary and, in the process, used brute force and violent tactics to subdue a bunch of college kids.
The discrepancy has motivated police Lt. Jim Rohner to review the case to determine if officers violated policy and procedure in their pursuit to restore order. His investigation continues.
After not meeting with any objections from defense attorneys, Elwell agreed to continue the hearing to Sept. 13.
The decision was made during a preliminary hearing during which three defense attorneys representing the group planned to have their clients testify that they were not resisting arrest, acting disorderly or starting a riot when officers got to the bar.
“They thought we were going to be a bunch of poor, uneducated kids who they could just rough up and throw in jail without anyone caring,” said Laura Zawistowski, a graduate student at Western Michigan University who is studying to be a teacher.
Zawistowski, who was charged with aggravated rioting, disorderly conduct and failure to disperse, said she is fighting the charges because not only is her reputation at stake, but also her future livelihood.
“I’m a college student. This could affect my student aid and follow me for the rest of my life,” she said.
Doug Strausbaugh, who also was arrested that night, said watching the behavior of police has really rocked his belief in law enforcement.
“A shepherd is outnumbered by his sheep, but there is no justification in beating and arresting his sheep,” he said.
That’s why defense attorney Michael Camera said he agreed to the continuation.
“The more police can find out about what happened at the Red Parrot, the better,” he said.
Contact Lisa Roberson at 653-6268 or lroberson@chroniclet.com.
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Comments and Opinions at Chronicle Telegram
Leland Matuszak Says:
August 4th, 2007 at 8:29 am
In the last year, this police department has come under allot of scrutiny by the media for several acts of malfeasance .
Past, internal investigations of officers mistakes have proven futile. If this department continues to handle investigations this way, the public will continue to lose trust in the Police..
Someone need to take the lead and request a full and impartial investigation by the FBI outside of Elyria and the Cleveland office. The reason for outside agents, is to reduce any hint of impartiality by local agents investigating past and present acts of wrongdoing by officers they have worked with in the past.
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Videos at Chronicle Telegram / You Tube
Red Parrot arraignment day
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thewomblog.com
Guest Blogger: Josh Vardous: Riot at the Red Parrot
Editor’s note: Josh Vardous is the Business Manager for HM Concerts & Management. I received an email from Mr. Vardous, asking to explain his side and experience with this article that appeared in Tuesday’s (7/31/07) Morning Journal (up to now - the only version of the incident available for public consumption). Both historically and philosophically - that’s what we do here at WoM. Please read both accounts. Mr. Vardous has agreed to take part in any commentary that should ensue. - sb
Our Lorain Police force have been under attack constantly by our local media outlets and our own citizens. It seems that martial law is becoming more apparent in our tiny corner of the world. And I for one am now a believer and I’m terrified.
For those that do not know about this tiny gem in our city called the Red Parrot, it is the sole proprietor of our music scene and more importantly it serves to our youth as a viable artistic outlet…. which not even our own school system can provide. It serves as a homing beacon to tiny national touring musical acts and brings a national spotlight to our town every week. Which other business in our city could possibly say the same?
This past Saturday night, July 28th, I was absolutely awestruck by the series of events that took place in which our police department seemed to take the law into their own hands. And I just had to speak out and inform the public.
As the night was stretching on, a very minor and normal disturbance took place in which I happened to witness. Two men were upset at each other and exchanging words. So it goes when testosterone and alcohol are mixed. The argument was broken up and the men were separated; one outside, one to the back of the club. The band that was on stage during the argument stopped playing and asked the guys to please calm down and enjoy the night. They then went on with the show. As the one fellow was outside, he ended up becoming more and more upset by being sent outside to cool down. He eventually ended up destroying some of the club’s property (a window) and therefore was detained by the club owner until police arrived to attend to the situation further.
Okay, so far so good.
Then the following ensued…
As the police arrived the show was continuing. The band were playing and the crowd were enjoying themselves. Our law enforcement officers seemed to have the original disturbance under control and I for one thought they were heading on their way. I saw one officer ask the doorman at the club if he were checking identification. He responded in kind and then in a blink of an eye, officers filed into the venue and stormed the stage. One of the band member’s playing on stage was asked to stop playing.
Now if you’ve ever been to a show, you would know that it is extremely hard to hear things, especially if you’re the one on stage and playing! Next thing I knew, police were arresting the man on stage and tackling another of the band members to the ground. The police were yelling out for everyone to disperse the club. But nobody moved…
Everybody were in shock; stuck in their seats, frozen into place. Another fellow stood on stage and asked what was happening and then he went down to the ground and was arrested. People began to worry that they might be next. I even saw young girls begin to cry. Nobody had a clue as to why the police were randomly subduing and arresting people.
I saw another man that was punched in the face by an officer and then the officer continued to beat him while he was knocked out on the ground. Then officer’s began to taser their victims and I headed for the door. More police were filing in. I grabbed my mother, who was also frozen in place at the sight of things, and dragged her out the door and across the street. I went back into the club to find my girlfriend and her family.
I saw more people sprawled out on the ground in handcuffs and began to fear I may be next. Thankfully we avoided any confrontations with an officer and made it out of the club. The dominoes began to fall so quickly, who knows what else was coming. If things were getting this out of control, this fast, then what was the next step for the police? Guns???
Finally, most people started to wake up and realize what was happening and began to yell for others to disperse and not turn back.
After all was said and done I believe 11 individuals were arrested, beaten, choked and tasered. I watched from across the street as each person were dragged out of the club and put into the back of cruisers. One of the men who were already in a police cruiser was even tasered while sitting in the car! My girlfriend and her family were huddled together like we had just witnessed a homicide. All we could do now was watch and pray.
I am not a rabble rouser, but since our music scene and youth are more important to me than most any other citizen of our city, I have to speak up.
In the past two days I have had conversations with some of the arrested individuals and am now soliciting any news/media source to delve into this event a little further. I am not the only one that is unaware of why things happened the way they did. If anybody happens to have photos or video footage from that night, please contact the media and lawyers of the accused.
The Red Parrot is not responsible for what took place. Our local businesses need not fear this tiny music club. Please support the arts and our youth. One of the Sergeants who were at the club the night of this debacle has been stated in the police report as saying the club has become a ‘nuisance’ to the downtown Lorain area. This statement couldn’t be further from the truth. Who could this club be a nuisance to? All the other businesses that are operating downtown after 5pm? Give me a break!
Maybe this is a personal vendetta against the club owner who was formally the owner of the Flying Machine on South Broadway? I remember the Flying Machine was situated in the middle of a neighborhood and that it had it’s share of complaints just as any other bar or nightclub would. So where are the complaints that would garner calling this club a nuisance? I see and hear none. If we constantly follow a negative mentality towards our youth then there will always be one. Let’s support something positive for once!
I hope that everyone who were in attendance this night are willing to speak up about this atrocity. And I know most of you are. So August 9th, 2pm, at the Lorain Court House the press will be on hand to listen to our side of the story. The actions of our police officers need to be accounted for. Our citizens need to know the truth of the matter. The police report cannot be the only source of information for this. We must speak up and inform.
I only hope that no person will ever have to be witness to an event such as this.
I have now become so very jaded towards our officers that I am afraid I will never be able to trust them again.
Please keep an eye out for your neighbor’s and protect our city from itself!
on 02 Aug 2007 at 1:17 pm
1.Ruffled and baffled said …
WHERE EXACTLY IS THE RED PARROT?
on 02 Aug 2007 at 1:30 pm
2.scott bakalar said …
R&B - the Red Parrot is located at 538 Broadway in downtown Lorain.
A Clarification
My best advice is that any and all who do have personal photos-video-first hand accounts communicate directly with either Mr. Vardous or the attorneys representing the accused. Hopefully Josh will leave an email here for us.
A hearing of this sort should be held in a court of law and not on a blog.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 3:16 pm
3.Henery said …
According to one downtown merchant, the Red Parrot draws a lot of underage kids that hang outside the bar, and I have spoken to one eyewitness who has seen drug activity taking place outside of the bar.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 5:33 pm
4.denise said …
also note, the police have been to the Red Parrot 7 times for noise and fights..since 2007. so that is about once a month,,only once were they called there for a beer truck that was blocking roadway.Got the info right from the sorce…records dept.
Won’t find me there.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 5:40 pm
5.Black Cloud said …
I see you did as you were instructed and no harm to your person, nor were you arrested. I believe that is how interaction with the police is supposed to be. You do what you are told and they don’t taser you. Seems simple to me.
Are underage persons allowed to be in bars after a certain time of evening?
I also am a music lover(all though a bit older), I enjoy a live show as much as the next guy. How ever, if there is something going down at a club, I know it is better to err on the side of caution, and remove myself and loved ones from the scene than have my “innocent”, “minding my own business” butt tasered and arrested.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 5:48 pm
6.Scott Smith said …
I too was at the Red Parrot that night and was totally horrified by the display of force the Lorain Police used !!
I think the Lorain Police department should be assamed of themselves !!
The officers involved should be put on suspended leave or better yet let go.
I was almost arrested that night also for being in the right place at the wrong time.
Please look at both sides of the picture before making jugememt.
Do not just look at what the Police want you to see !!
on 02 Aug 2007 at 6:29 pm
7.Roman said …
Is the Red Parrot still for sale?
on 02 Aug 2007 at 6:46 pm
8.Henery said …
Judging from past news items, where someone was arrested, the best advice for everyone else in the area is to step back, let the police do their business, and follow them to the police station and sweat bail and the details there. I highly doubt that anyone is going to convince an arresting officer that he is handcuffing the wrong person. On the other hand, trying to interfere with the officer while he’s trying to control a situation will almost definitely get you arrested for obstruction. Yelling at the police officer will get you disorderly, etc. Am I saying what happened at the Red Parrot was warranted? Nope, I wasn’t there to see. Do I believe that the place has a history and a reputation? Most certainly.
We’ll just have to see how this plays out.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 8:56 pm
9.JT said …
Close friends were at the Red Parrot, I feel in all honestly, the officers used excesive force with no reason. This doesn’t mean all cops are bad. I can relate to these cops being on the edge with the city’s crime rate as it stands. We all worry about our own saftey as well as friends and family. My friends who were at the Red Parrot Saturday have repeatedly said they were scared and could not understand the beatings, tasering and verbal challanges these officers were making to the patrons. From the way I understand it, it was as if these officers were inducing panic without explaination of why. They had the guy they were called in for! Why didnt they talk to the bar owner,manager or doorman about the situation at hand before action? Lack of communication? I have also heard the Police Chief of Lorain has it in for the owner of the Red Parrot. It does not make the Red Parrot any different from Jack and Diane’s, Mutt and Jeffs, or Biggys. The drugs, fights and underage drinking that take place in many of these bars are wrong, but what is also wrong are cops with big egos and no respect for justice or humanity. We cheer and salute these brave men and women when the public is served well, but in this case, we were done a disservice. These officers need help and these victims deserve justice.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 9:07 pm
10.Mary said …
Personally, I think their time would be better spent monitoring the activity going on at Meister Road Plaza and at McDonalds.
Also, notice that neither of the people involved in the altercation were from that immediate neighborbood.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 9:10 pm
11.Henery said …
Considering the number of times that the police have been called to the Red Parrot, versus how many times they’ve had to answer calls at the McDonald’s on Meister, I think they know where the problem is.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 9:15 pm
12.Lonely will I be said …
I was also there that night. This is not my usual hang out as I am 47 years old. I was there to see a young man that I know play in a band. It seems that when alcohol is usually involved, people (of any age) get stupid. Without going into great detail, I just want to say the following:
Items in the MJ that I believe were not accurate:
There was not a riot. One person got out of hand and was taken outside. He kept coming back. The window broke when he was escorted out the last time, he pushed the door real hard and the door hit the side window.
Most of the people stayed put and kept listening to the band.
The police came in, checked some ID’s. The police approached the stage. The band was asked to stop playing. This was when it got a little out of hand. But, I would still not call it a riot. Most of the people in the Red Parrot just stood and watched what was happening. The police told everyone to leave during this altercation. Most did, but it took them a little bit to get going. It seemed like most were not believing what was happening.
There also was not any fighting going on in the street that I could see and I was close to the front doors.
I can see things on both sides of this mess.
The police were not called there for a riot. I believe they were called because of this one person who broke the front window.
If what happened inside after they asked the band to stop playing is what our police would call a riot, then I don’t know what they would call a real riot. What was the reasoning behind the police officers deciding to call this a riot? I don’t know. But it does seem fishy.
I also want to say that when you are asked to do, or not do, something by the police, you do as they say at that moment. Ask questions later. You need to keep a cool head - alcohol does not help you.
If the police EXAGERATED what had happened in the police report for some alterior reason, then shame on them. The police officers are suppose to be a roll model as they try to keep peace, this type of exageration does nothing for getting the respect and belief in them that these young adults need to have.
It was a not a pleasant thing to have witnessed and the young adults were very upset to see their friends get arrested in the way that they did.
I want to just say that most of the young adults in the Red Parrot that evening were just there to listen to the bands and were not drunk and were enjoying the evening. I personally did not see any drug activity that evening.
Even though punk rock is not my “cup of tea”, I remember that my parents did not like the rock and roll music I listened to when I was at that age.
Finally, do not judge all by the actions of a few(no matter what the age or for that matter by the job that they do). Work together to come up with a solution so that these young adults can enjoy their music in a safe place.
on 02 Aug 2007 at 9:20 pm
13.disgruntledmom said …
Although this has nothing to do with the Red Parrot, it does have to do with the LPD. I am wondering about the officer who was put on paid leave while being investigated for having sex while on duty. He has had numerous other complaints against him in the past few years. Does anyone have an opinion about that?
on 02 Aug 2007 at 9:33 pm
14.Brian Hazelett said …
Henrey,
I bet the police have been called to respond to fights and noise at a house down the street from me more times than they have had to go to the Red Parrot if it is reported that they have been there seven times the entire year.
I have gone to youtube.com and typed “RED Parrot Lorain” and there are quite a few videos. I would not be surprised if there wasn’t video of that evening. Time will only tell.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 11:28 am
15.Lewis LaCook said …
I’ve passed by the Red Parrot numerous times on foot in the wee hours of the morning (I like to take long walks at night through the city, writing poetry, and NEVER do I feel unsafe–so take THAT, panic-mongers!), and I have to say that the crowd there has always been polite, if boisterous.
I have never personally witnessed drug activity outside the club.
To echo Brian Hazelett a bit: I’ve seen the police called to the house next door to where I live two or three times a week, FAR more than the Red Parrot. I don’t think seven times in a year is excessive for a club–I can’t tell you how many times I’ve passed by Joshe’s on Broadway and seen police cruisers parked near it.
I sometimes wonder about the Lorain Police Department’s ethics. A few years ago, I was visiting my mother, who at the time lived on South Central, on the West Side. This neighborhood was often referred to as a “bad” neighborhood (after spending time in the Bronx, I’ve come to realize THERE ARE NO BAD NEIGHBORHOODS IN LORAIN). One day, I was walking to the store to buy my mother something she needed. This was broad daylight, mind you. A police cruiser pulled swiftly up to me, stopped me, and asked what I was doing in the neighborhood. I replied that I was going to the store to buy something for my mother. The officers then told me that “white boys” didn’t walk around in this neighborhood unless they were trawling for drugs.
They soon left me alone, deciding I was no threat. But that comment has stuck with me over the years. What kind of police force stops a law-abiding citizen walking to a store in a neighborhood with a bad reputation at random? What kind of police force makes decisions on who should be in which neighborhood based on the color oftheir skin.
Yes, this incident at the Red Parrot seems fishy. But then so does keeping an officer on the force who has had sexual misconduct complaints filed against him.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 12:53 pm
16.denise said …
i personally have a friend that owns a business in downtown Lorain,,and he welcomes the sight of an officer keeping a watchful eye, as it keeps his clientel coming in and the police do not get called there..guess it just depends on what side of the fence you want to be on. I think i have read enough of the red parrot..thanks for all the words of wisdom shared.
*wish i had an officer sitting on my street.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 1:09 pm
17.Daniel Jack Williamson said …
Lewis LaCook, I’ve experienced the same thing you have, both in Cleveland and Columbus (thankfully, not in Lorain). Police stopped me because I was white in a black neighborhood. In Columbus, they had the gall to tell me that white men only go to that neighborhood for prostitutes and drugs. I LIVED in that neighborhood, and I was walking to the GROCERY STORE to pick up a couple of loaves of bread, and I only had SIX DOLLARS in my wallet, and I asked them HOW MANY PROSTITUTES AND DRUGS I could buy for SIX BUCKS! After they radioed in to find out I didn’t have any priors (I wasn’t even doing anything wrong–I was walking down the sidewalk when they stopped me), they apologized for delaying me but warned me “a white guy got killed here just last week” as they drove off. The nerve!
on 03 Aug 2007 at 1:59 pm
18.Loraine Ritchey said …
Well that happens in London a lot ……there are areas that if you are white or even asian it is definitely not safe….I got off the train at the wrong stop a couple of years ago this plump ,little old lady and bob’s you uncle I was stopped by the “Bobby’s” what are you doing here madam ?? “don’t think I looked like prostitute but ??? etc I showed them my identification and then wouldn’t even let me take a “taxi” they couldn’t guarantee even the taxi drivers in that area.. so they drove me to the next area………..this in my own home town…..I used to go to the big market there a few years ago. but things change … sometimes the red flag is just that…… and sometimes ?????????? Loraine
on 03 Aug 2007 at 3:54 pm
20.denise said …
okay..i had to read that rss feeder…and i went to the source again. (as i try to do)…the officer was apparently not flipped off..but verbaly told to f— off.
Beginners Class 101…. you don’t do that.
And that is when the id’s started to get checked. You can flag the finger at an officer but not verbally use that language.(info given to me from legal). I am not on either side of this issue, as there are always two sides and then the truth.
But at this particular time when the city is in such disray, i find it difficult to put off or put down the very people that i am asking to protect me. I made my comments to the chief re: (other issues) via e-mail and Journal.
That is the only comment that i feel reaonablly confidient writting about.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 4:11 pm
21.Rona said …
I was at the Red Parrot that night and left 10 minutes before police arrived to walk to Scorchers and was planning on coming right back to see Josh’s band. When I left the crowd was definitely not out of control. The majority of it was friends of ours and friends of friends, and, as Josh mentioned, parents, families, etc.
I can’t speak to what happened when I wasn’t there but I can certainly form an opinion based on my past dealings with Lorain police and accounts like these from friends I consider trustworthy.
Well, written piece, Josh, and I saw you were published in the Journal yesterday. Way to go!
on 03 Aug 2007 at 5:16 pm
22.Rona said …
Another thing: I think we need to tread very lightly when jumping to conclusions about bars based solely on the number of times police have responded. Consider that it is often the bar owner or bartender who calls police. We certainly don’t want those people allowing bad behavior to go on or trying to handle it themselves without the proper training just to avoid piling up the statistics.
About Lorain police, please check out http://www.cleveland.com/loraincops/. It’s a collection of Plain Dealer coverage on Lorain police. I call your attention specifically to the article “Police conduct at issue in Lorain.”
on 03 Aug 2007 at 5:57 pm
23.Rona said …
And another thing …
When the PD article mentioned above ran, there was a huge info-packed graphic that breaks down misconduct in the Lorain PD by officer. It got squeezed from the paper but was posted to Cleveland.com, but apparently is no longer available there. The head graphics guy here has given me permission to e-mail copies of the pdf file to anyone who’s interested. If you’d like a copy, e-mail me at ronalproudfoot@yahoo.com.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 7:21 pm
24.denise said …
I must say, a Police Officer is something that I could never be or do…i have always felt they are damned if they do, and damned if they don’t.
I am not excusing ANY misconduct or improper behavior by an officer by any means, but…
I dont understand all this need for bashing? I am sure with all of us, if we dig deep enough, we would find out things about one another that maybe we would rather not.
Maybe we should start checking backgrounds on whose blogging? Come up with some dirt huh?
i am disappointed with this venue as It is starting to sound petty now.
denise caruloff
on 03 Aug 2007 at 9:02 pm
25.Daniel Jack Williamson said …
“Maybe we should start checking backgrounds on whose blogging?”
Denise, I have no criminal history.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 9:36 pm
26.TMC said …
Denise,
As much as I disagree with bashing the Police in this case before any substantial investigation has been done – I do firmly believe in Free Speech. Sites like WoM allow people, like Josh, to post their thoughts and opinions. You or I may disagree with them but I believe as long as they are constructive and from the heart, as Josh’s post obviously is, then I believe there should be a forum for people to speak out.
There are sites out there that are used by people, who sign anonymous, to be petty and take cheap shots at people. As a relatively new site TMC NEWS has been struggling with how to allow comments without censoring people. WoM has a nice set up and hopefully we will be able to have something similar in the near future. In the meantime cherish sites like this one who allow people the opportunity to share their views unedited and without restrictions.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 9:56 pm
27.denise said …
i dont either Daniel,
I was just not comfortable with where this looked like it was going..point was, none of us are angels, and what is the sense of belittleing people that we don’t know, and who has not harmed us, verbally or physically. Those who have been affected, have the right to speak of what ever it was that was wrongd or damaging. I just thought “we” should do better.
I spoke out aginst the chief, because he stated that we were complainers and critizers, and i had felt there were so many of us that have been trying so hard to make a difference, People united to help the with the school chaos..people united with the block watches..etc..and countless other tasks that were done by so many of us in the city..that bashing our LPD at this point felt uneasy to me. I am thankful for those LP officers that want to make a difference. A few have helped debbie and i countless times with the problems we have in our hood. I can not tell you and I appreciate their assistance.
I just personally choose to be more careful where i cast my stones and who i am throwing them at, and justly and with validity.
I ment no harm to anyone here, I just wanted us to stop and think for a minute. Again i do not condone any wrong behavior from the lpd..B
denise
on 03 Aug 2007 at 9:58 pm
28.Loraine Ritchey said …
Denise I apparently have three charges but can’t find what they are still waiting to be told…..
All parties will have their day in court…. I have struggled with this thread as I wasn’t there so I don’t know….so I can’t comment ….
but I did offer the LPD equal time although unfortunately they are restricted from commenting due to pending legal…. we will just have to wait this one out in my opinion. In the meantime I agree with TMC and the person writing as a Guest Blogger has signed their own name to their blog article and has written what he experienced as he saw it. I support his right to do so and for it to be on the WoM
I have as you know every sympathy with the LPD and the situations they face daily….would I want my husband or brother or son in that line of work? No! The people they have to deal with who spit on them , urinate in the cars and defecate. the calls that they go out on not knowing if some wanna be gang banger wants to make a name for himslef that night.or a drug deal gone bad.or a parking lot in McDonalds blood and guts on the ground…… it must take its toll night after night especially with the rise in calls etc. I can’t say if they were in the right or wrong…..I wasn’t there and I haven’t heard all sides ( notice I didn’t say both sides) so I will wait…….the jury is out for the moment imho Loraine
on 03 Aug 2007 at 10:17 pm
29.scott bakalar said …
Hi Denise.
Actually I don’t read any bashing, per se. My whole intent here was to present another side of the story. As you yourself said.
as there are always two sides and then the truth.
Josh simply disagreed with what was published in the Morning Journal on Tuesday 7/31/07, and wanted to present his side of the events.
So as of right now tonight, we have The Journal’s account (based off of the Police Report), Josh’s account and those who have shared their experiences in the comment section here.
The truth, as you so eloquently pointed out - is somewhere in between.
It’s up to us as citizens to get as much info as we possibly can and form our own conclusions. Take this stuff for what it is - people’s individual experiences - and form our own judgments.
If our separate judgments (read: truths) disagree with each other - so be it - perhaps we may, at some time be able to find common ground. But to categorize folk’s experiences as “bashing” is very unfair - as this was their personal experience. Not mine, not yours.
As far as doing research and background checks on Bloggers - here’s my personal Google History - have at it.
Should you find anything of interest and wish to write up an article on what you have discovered, I promise you I will publish it here - as that would be your experience and your right.
on 03 Aug 2007 at 10:25 pm
30.denise said …
Loraine, i totally agree with you. And Mr.Vardos had and has every write to speak of what he knows to be the truth…i think it was post 26 rona, that set me off, as i got the impression we needed to dig up some dirt on officers that was relevant at this time.
I think that i do not do well, at this blogging thing as i had told you before.So, therefore i will cease from writting and let those who do better at it.
thanks for listenting anyhow.
denise
on 03 Aug 2007 at 10:28 pm
31.denise said …
oops, one more post..should read “was not relevant at this time”…where is my proof reading after the fact.
denise
on 03 Aug 2007 at 10:30 pm
32.Rona said …
I really don’t know what I did to set you off.
You were eager to post the number of times police have been called to the Red Parrot. All I did was balance that with the statistics from the other side.
And I am not doing that to take sides. After all, aren’t we more informed if we have all the facts?
on 04 Aug 2007 at 7:06 am
33.Loraine Ritchey said …
Denise, it is hard sometimes not to take things personally especially when you are new to the experience of the commenting on sites.
Usually a person responds because something is near to them or they are involved in a situation.then we sit in out homes looking at a screen and sopmeone elses words come at us into our homes that are flat…..meaning that you don’t have the benefit of the inflection of a voice or the body language ( by which we as humans also communicate) we read these words….sometimes without the humor the writer meant, or the sarcasm or the pain of the writer….and sometimes the attack we perceive is not meant..and sometimes it is
but because the words are coming into our home through our computer it becomes personal and the writer is writing to us alone…. actually most people unless they get into a one on one .writers are usually writing to the 21 readers we have as a body …… no one is totally right in these comments and no one is totally wrong……..it is opinion and sometimes we learn some things…..
Hang in there winter is on it’s way
on 04 Aug 2007 at 7:15 am
34.Loraine Ritchey said …
Chronicle coverage http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/08/04/riot-at-club-under-review/
on 05 Aug 2007 at 1:06 am
35.Mike McCartney said …
My band was supposed to play that night but we had to cancel for unrelated reasons. I missed all the fun damnit.
My ears perked up while reading the Morning Journal when they said the club is a “nuisance”. Well I guess off duty LPD don’t go get drunk at the Bloody Parrot.
I interpret the word “nuisance” as “targeted for shut down by the good ol’ boys in Lorain government”.
Another vacant store front on the loop? I hope not. Can’t mayor Krasienko get his union buddies together and do something?
Maybe we should start a new government program to address this issue. That’d fix ‘er up real good. We could call it “Project Dry Parrot”.
on 06 Aug 2007 at 6:38 am
36.Loraine Ritchey said …
Just another weekened?
http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/08/06/potty-break-on-high-leads-to-arrest-of-3/
http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/08/06/police-briefs-man-shot-dead-man-church-thief-blood-in-house-billiard-assault-ice-cream-injury/
on 06 Aug 2007 at 12:22 pm
37.deadringerbrian said …
What do you guys think of this? The people that were tasered that night have already recieved pieces of paper dropping ALL charges if signed. What no one has talked about on here is that one of the people arrested was video taping the incident. Camera was confiscated and when it was given back, the footage was erased. Believe me, the LPD knows that they screwed up.
on 06 Aug 2007 at 1:59 pm
38.joshV said …
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for reading and thanks to WOM for letting me be a part of your blog site.
I know more parts of that night are starting to become clear as people are speaking up. And I couldn’t be happier to see everything I’ve ever stood for, sang about, or have preached about…becoming a reality. What I’m talking about is commUNITY. The one time I have something local to fight for and people are standing behind it. I only hope we follow it to the end and not let it fall apart.
Some people that night deserved to be arrested for their actions. Most did not. Some of the police that night definitely abused their power in my eyes. Most did not. I do believe with our current state of affairs that our police force could use their time a little more efficiently rather than sending 12 officers to handle one drunk guy at a bar. Maybe that is just my opinion but it seemed to me a bad idea. More likely a bad dream.
I have always been a forward thinking individual regarding our city. There are many things I believe are wrong but I won’t dwell on the negative too much as that’s all the news we ever have to report on; and something I’ve done enough in the past week to last a long while. Instead, I just want to say in order for us to fix our problems we have to stay together. We have to encourage our youth to be the best they can be. We have to engourage each other to be the best we can be. If we leave all of this at words, then nothing will ever change. The power of the people is so true that if we could only believe in that power for one second, nothing could ever stop us from having a city to love, cherish, and even brag about.
I am a huge supporter of our youth and I probably give back to them more than most care to do. It seems to me that without resources and outlets, our youth are just going to continue to grow up into the thugs which we currently are being terrorized by.
Lorain is becoming a joke. I am abarrassed that all I have ever said about Lorain is how amazing it is, how much I love it, and how much of a great place it is to live. I’m always trying to get people to know our city at little better and now I feel like I’ve made a great mistake.
on 07 Aug 2007 at 11:01 pm
39.kalin said …
Oddly, on the same night as the “riot at the red parrot,” this happened:
“Underaged Drinking Party Busted At Lorain Ohio Police Officer/Lorain FOP President Corey Earl’s Home”
http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18645643&BRD=1699&PAG=461&dept_id=46371&rfi=6
I don’t know if this officer was part of the events at the red parrot, but it is an interesting coincidence.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOG BY THE FACIALS
Saturday, July 28, 2007
Police brutality is classy....
Current mood: aggravated
Category: Life
We have never really been a band that blogs. Or rants constantly. Personally we have never felt the need. When we have an awesome experience, a great show, or an amazing memory that we want to imprint on the rest of you we come here.
Tonight that really isn't the case.
In the pit of my stomach I feel sad, angry, outraged, appalled, disgusted, and hell… even hatred. Hate. The one thing in my life that I try to fight. A feeling I never put forward with my first foot.
Here I'll try to subdue it. This story I'd like to present as unbiased, but of course I am.
Two months ago we learned Joe Fish, guitar player for Dead Ringer, supporter of the Facials, and a good friend, is leaving the state of Ohio. In a classy fashion a great list of bands was put together to play a farewell show to our wonderful purveyor of punk.
The show was setup at the Red Parrot in Lorain. Close to home for the boys of Dead Ringer.
The evening arrived and a great time was had by all, ask anyone that played, danced, or drank tonight at the Red Parrot.
(As I didn't witness these events of the evening, it is all word of mouth.)
As will happen at any punk show, testosterone flared. It was taken into the streets a window was broken. Of course the cops came, right in the middle of Dead Ringer's set.
Dismayed the show continued. Until the force, which was half if not all of Lorain's police, came into the bar. Whether they wanted to talk to the owner, discuss the broken window, or check ID's? No one knows.
Around this time Joe Fish realizes his best friend was just arrested on the street. Here again for what I don't know. Window? Fighting?
Like any human Joe was pissed. He flicked the cops off, a right he has or had. Unless my uneducated ass is missing something. Flicking some one off is still protected under the constitution. It just really pisses people off, especially if they can't let it go.
Joe flicked off the wrong cop.
Captain hard ass did the worst thing ever. He got on stage and arrested the man of the night. The person we were celebrating.
The place blew up. Everyone's hands in the air asking, "What are you arresting him for?"
The answer to that question: a punch in the face, thrown to the ground, dog piled by cops, and handcuffed.
The most unnecessary act I have ever seen from a police force. I understand crowds are intimidating. But you shut a place down; you expect to incur the wrath. All we, the audience, wanted to know was what's the charge? Apparently we were guilty for wanting to protect our friends. Guilty of wanting to be treated as human beings and not animals.
One thing I've learned in my life is that when you act aggressively towards others they return that aggression. The Lorain police are lucky the bar wasn't torn down.
The Lorain police could have come in and blown a whistle and told everyone to get the hell out of the bar.
No the Lorain police wanted to crack skulls, so they would have a fun story to tell their buddies about how they beat up some drunk punks.
Helplessness consumes us. We gave Dead Ringer what we had in our pockets to help bail out the members of their band that got arrested.
Some of us were smart enough to take videos on our cell phones. Those videos will be posted if they become available to me. Currently we want anyone who was at the show, or anyone who has heard of this injustice to e-mail anyone and everyone of authority in Lorain, or Ohio. Whoever.
This story cannot go untold. If you do have footage of any of the said events think about giving it to a media outlet.
To quote the Big Lebowski, "This injustice will not stand, man!"
On a side note I have friends and family that are policeman. I understand the officer's position. Good cops risk their lives everyday. I appreciate that, but all the cops I know would have been appalled at the sight my eyes witnessed. There is a difference between doing your duty and cracking skulls.
I hope everyone had a better night than we did. We did have fun playing and everyone was awesome, but wow...
That is all I have to say about that. Sorry it wasn't more fulfilling, but I hope it enraged you. It should have. I have to go write some letters.
Posted by Fat of the Facials on Friday, August 03, 2007 at 7:42 AM
Update for anyone involved in this whole mess. I contacted the Mayor of Lorain and the Chief of Police. Of course no response. I sent a letter to the local paper, after I read Jennifer Bracken's article online. She did respond:
I am giving those in attendance at The Red Parrot on July 29 a chance to
tell me their version of events. I can be reached at (440) 245-6901 at
extension 550. If you wish to share some comments with me on the record,
please call me.
Thanks,
Jennifer Bracken
Reporter
The Morning Journal
1657 Broadway
Lorain, Ohio 44052
(440) 245-6901, 550
So if any of you were there. Call her give her your side of the story. Got to go I have a phone call to make.
-Fatty
---------------------------------------------------
Thursday, August 09, 2007
GETTING THEIR STORY OUT
The courtroom of Judge Thomas Elwell was packed today as defendants from the incident at the Red Parrot were due to have a hearing. Even though there was no hearing today, it has been continued to September 13th citing “further investigation is needed”, the defendants and witnesses wanted to tell their side of the story.
Attorney for 4 of the defendants, Michael Camera said that in a nutshell this case is about one man that caused a problem at the bar that night who was taken outside by the owner. “The Police were out on the street, having been called by the bar owner, and was given Haley Riley Baxter and they were done. Except the Sergeant showed up, Sergeant Wolford, who yelled at Mitch the owner, I guess you didn’t learn your lesson from the last time when I shut you down at the Flying Machine. Mitch then told him “you didn’t shut me down”. Then according to Mitch’s account Sergeant Wolford said then maybe you will learn your lesson tonight and ordered all the Officers to shut him down. So the other Officers were ordered by their OIC, their Officer in Charge Wolford, into the bar to shut them down. What I have heard from Mitch is that the other Officers looked at Wolford in amazement like why, why would we go in and shut them down? They went in under the auspice of some young kids who looked like they were under age. This is interesting because no one was charged with underage drinking, there was no one found to be underage and as near as I can tell, no one was checked. What we had was the Police ran in, caused a disturbance, jumped up on stage told the band to stop their performance, and then according to accounts of many witnesses that I talked to, the Police started yelling at people, grabbing people and if anybody said anything or was near a Policeman they were thrown to the ground and handcuffed.”
Camera said that he has a witness that saw the Police strangle Joe Fish, one of the band members. “I also have other people who say they saw a kid in handcuffs punched at least twice in the face.” Camera was asked why he thinks, if the allegations are true, would Police Officers react this way if the patrons were just inside listening to music and not bothering anyone. “The band was playing and one of my clients was in the band and yelled an obscenity at the Policeman when they came in and that irritated him.” When asked if he knew what his client yelled at the Officer Camera said he did know but couldn’t repeat it. Cameras clients brother, Shawn Fish, did share with us the obscenity and you will read that in his interview. Camera went onto say that the Officer jumped up on stage and there was no resistance. "If you ask any patron in the bar, nobody was fighting anybody else; no one had a reason to fight anyone or the Policemen. If you look at the reports, not one Policeman alleges or says they have one scratch or bruise on themselves.”
We asked Camera why his client would yell the obscenity at the Officer if he was up on stage playing his music. “I don’t know, maybe he was caught in the heat of the moment. He was on stage singing his lyrics, it was his last song and they wanted to finish their last song yet the Police were yelling at them to stop and I guess they didn’t want to stop.” Camera said there is some confusion if the obscenity that was yelled was directed at the officer or was just part of the song.
Camera said that he is encouraging witnesses that were at the Red Parrot that night to contact the Police Chief or Lt. Jim Rohner and tell them everything that they saw that night. “Our position is the more that comes out, the more that is known by the Police Department and the Prosecutor about what happened; the more likely the cases against my clients will be dropped.”
The case right now is being investigated internally by the Lorain Police headed up by Lt. Rohner. Camera said that he doesn’t want to dismiss the Police Departments investigation out of hand; “The Chief is a good man, I’m only dismayed by the fact that Lt. Rohner hasn’t even talked to Mitch, the owner of the bar yet. He may be talking with the Officers first and then will be talking to Mitch but I guess I will have a wait and see attitude about that.”
Camera wants people to know that this incident does not reflect the entire Lorain Police Department. “I grew up in Lorain and my office is here. We have problems in Lorain; I believe 7 murders this year. We’ve got good Police Officers doing a very difficult job dealing with some very high end crime and they are to be commended for their service. That might be part of the problem here. I think Police Officers ran into this bar expecting a bunch of gang bangers and treated them that way. When actually what you have are college or post college kids listening or playing in a band."
Shawn Fish is one of the men arrested that night; his brother was playing in the band that was performing at the Red Parrot that night. Fish gave us the following account of what he saw. As Officers went up on the stage Fish followed to find out what was going on. “I stepped up onto the stage and tried to talk to them, asking why they were arresting them first of all. He said that he (Fish’s brother and band member) made a gesture and told him (the Officer) to eat a dick. I told him that he was just playing his music, that it was lyrics to a song and he said no its not he was directing it at me.” I asked Fish what the name of the song was that his brother was singing at the time, “Umm, I don’t even know, I have only seen them play twice.” Fish said that he stood next to the Officer on the stage and put his hand on his back near the shoulder area. “I guess he said don’t touch me then the next thing I really remember is vaguely being strangled I know I was thrown on my head off of the stage. I vaguely remember being strangled, then I woke up, face down with handcuffs on inside the bar with a lot of people walking around me, I don’t think there were very many people running or anything like that but it could have been a dangerous situation being unconscious with no cops around me.”
Fish was asked why he thought Officers would do what has been alleged. “I’m not sure; I know people are saying that the Sergeant has a personal vendetta with the owner of the bar. He was outside telling the other Officers to go in and shut it down. Then they came in there and my brother made a gesture at them flipped them off and told em to eat a dick and that kinda made them mad. Then after that it was like they were pissed off and they were just going to take it out on us. They wanted to shut the place down anyway, what better way then to say this place has riots.”
Fish said that although he is not sure that the internal investigation will bring any disciplinary action to the Officers involved but he is happy that it will bring more information out about what happened that night. Fish was charged with Aggravated Rioting Disorderly Conduct and Resisting Arrest.
Mitch Karczewski, the owner of the Red Parrot said that what happened that night was all based on a vendetta against him from Sgt. Wolford. “What happened that night was a few Policemen reacted to an order from a bad Policeman that was in charge. It was a personal vendetta against me that started this thing. When Officer Wolford saw me he said hey didn’t I teach you a lesson at the other place? He didn’t teach me any lesson, I broke no laws. The Red Parrot has a clear record; it has no liquor violation and no arrests there. So how can a person like that call my place a public nuisance?”
Joe Fish was playing in the band at the Red Parrot the night of the incident; he was arrested after flipping off a Police Officer and telling him to “eat a dick”. Fish said the reason he did this was because he was pissed off. “I was pissed off cause one of my friends was in the back of a Police car and they arrested one of my friends, which he was let go actually but I was pissed off.” Fish said that although he can understand why the Officer might have been made, he believes his Freedom of Speech protects him.
Parties will all be back in court on September 13th for the next hearing on this case.
TMC NEWS has requested time with Lorain Police Chief Cel Rivera to discuss this case. We will bring that interview to you if we are given the opportunity.
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TMC Comments
Anonymous said...
Is the red parrot a gay bar?....lisa
1:47 AM
Michael said...
Joe Fish was playing in the band at the Red Parrot the night of the incident; he was arrested after flipping off a Police Officer and telling him to “eat a dick”. Fish said the reason he did this was because he was pissed off. “I was pissed off cause one of my friends was in the back of a Police car and they arrested one of my friends, which he was let go actually but I was pissed off.”
If he was on stage playing in a band, how would he know what was going on outside and weren’t the arrests made after the gesture and eat a dick comment? That is what all these kids are saying. Maybe this Joe Fish guy should get his made up story straight.
Not surprising it was his brain child brother who went up on stage trying to question the police officer and putting his hand on his shoulder. WHY on earth would you do something like that? Especially if what you say is true that these guys STORMED the bar and stage beating people, why would you put your hands on them or even try to question them?
I am also tired of reading accounts that these are good college kids or post college kids. If they are in fact graduates of some college their parents need to get the tuition back from their schools.
I can’t wait to see what jason says about this one.
Michael from North Ridgeville
10:15 PM
Elaine said...
I have a solution to all the "bar" calls in Lorain.....close down all the bars and become a dry city.
1:03 AM
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Forum Discussion
Title: Lorain Cops
I tip my hat to all officers but I would not want to be a lorain police officer. They have a job on there hands. I thought the 12 hour shifts are supposed to put more cops on the roads, I have not seen a difference at all. I think the 12 hour shifts are for more days off than anything. During an 8 hour shift S. lorain had 2 officers, now during the 12 hours shifts they still have 2 officers. One of the biggest selling points for 12 hour shifts I thought was more on the road. Maybe 12 hours in car all day is to much, it may produce a little frustration or anxiety and police may over react at some calls like the red parrot. Lorain is looking like Detroit, minus the basketball championships. No wonder the Mayor is quiting, soon the chief of lorain will too.
Written by: bigman on July 31, 2007 10:39 AM
Don't worry, once you guys elect a fine democrat as mayor, I'm sure all of these complaints will stop.
Written by: JAY on July 31, 2007 11:46 AM
Title: Riot at the Red Parrot
As a friend to our community of youth, my treasured local music scene, and a son to our city...
I beg you to take notice of the series of events that took place this weekend at the Red Parrot Cafe at 538 Broadway Ave.
It was a scene of horrible distaste.
If anyone can find any written facts to this debacle, please send them my way.
Our police force this night were out of line and caused a scene that did not need to happen, nor should ever be witnessed to ever again. Excessive force is a bold statement but this instance was more true than my own mind wanted to believe.
Our youth need protection; not fear from our law enforcers.
Our citizens need support and encouragement...more now than ever.
I am not a rabble rouser, but since our music scene and youth are more important to me than most any other citizen of our city, I have to speak up.
I have not noticed any news outlets that yet have spoken out about the events that unfurled this past Saturday, but be aware than many people were arrested just for being in attendance.
Our local law enforcement stepped over the line again and turned a normal night out into a terrifying nightmare.
-Joshua Vardous
Written by: joshunderground on July 30, 2007 8:16 PM
Finally somebody has reported this incident (ie The Journal).
Except that all their facts were wrong and the only truth to it were the individuals arrested.
The police report cannot be the only source of information!
People were beaten, tasered, and arrested just for being in attendance to a local downtown music event.
August 9th, 2pm is the hearing at the Lorain Court House. I urge any individuals who were witness to these atrocities to please attend and speak to the news stations. We will have our voices heard! The police cannot practice martial law and beat up our city's youth at will!
Written by: joshunderground on July 31, 2007 3:50 PM
Title: Re: Riot at the Red Parrot
The Man is always trying to keep us down. we were just sitting sippin' our sodie pop and calling the officers a buch of mother******.
ain't no thing
Written by: lbvp on July 31, 2007 4:58 PM
Aha! Now I see why nobody cares to respond about this incident. You think this is some kind of joke. You think I'm some young punk kid trying to complain about the hard times the police are handing down. Real funny isn't it?
Am I just another one of the bandwagon jumpers bashing our local police? No.
Am I just another voice complaining about everything wrong with our city? No.
I'm trying to speak out about something that happened in our city that was an absolute atrocity. An isolated incident(?). I want the public to know and I hope that they might even slightly care about the situation.
Martial law is no longer used as a last resort and I witnessed it first hand this weekend. It scared the living out of me.
I just pray that none of you ever have to go through what the people at the Red Parrot did this weekend...
Written by: joshunderground on August 1, 2007 11:46 AM
I hate to burst your bubble, but any complaints about the department, are gonna go to the rotary basket. Sure, they'll appease you, by taking the complaint, and doing semi follow-up, but that will be it. Getting the media involved, is your best option, to implement radical change.
Written by: lorena on August 1, 2007 1:10 PM
E-mail me your phone number, Josh. Spoke yesterday to Mitch.
Written by: jnedley on August 1, 2007 2:48 PM
I think it would be in the best interest of the community to have an outside agency investigate this incident.
If police abused their power, then they must be held accountable.
If they acted properly, then let an neutral party clear them and we can all give them our support.
Written by: Go Lorain on August 3, 2007 12:56 AM
For anyone interested in this, the Elyria Chronicle Telegram had a more in-depth story Saturday including contradicting accounts by police and the bar owner and witnesses. Its an interesting read at ECT's website: http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/08/04/riot-at-club-under-review/
Written by: Bucyruss on August 5, 2007 10:41 AM
According to the CT article:
"Police Lt. Jim Rohner said he is reviewing what happened that night to determine if officers violated policy and procedure in their pursuit to restore order."
Later in the article it says:
"Rohner said officers only decided to do a walkthrough after seeing people who appeared to be underage milling around. Also, it was their duty to ensure that no one else had a complaint that needed to be addressed, he said."
Why bother with an investigation if you've already made up your mind that they were doing "their duty".
Repeat after me, we need an outside investigation.
Written by: Go Lorain on August 5, 2007 3:12 PM
How interesting the obsession is with cleaning up the police department when you've got so many problems that need cleaning up on your streets.
Of course, that is only one of the issues that has lead to Lorain's continued state of decline. As with any other incident that I've seen posted about the police, I'd just be curious as to how many of the people the police have encountered that have been / are repeat offenders.
If there is an investigation that needs to happen, it should probably be within the court system that allows these yahoos to back on the street. Much like the taser incident, don't call the police and then whine when they do their job.
Conisder the drug dealer who was recently eliminated at McDonald's. I wonder just how many times he had run ins and how many times the police had seen him breaking the law. I'm sure, since he was a noted dealer, he'd been arrested before only to get back up and snub the law again.
If you are soooo truly concerned about the safety of the citizens in Lorain then start with the inept judicial (that can also be referred to as "court" if the other word is too big for you) system and back off of your police.
If it wasn't for the few who are there now and willing to put up with the unthankful media and citizens crap, you'd be in a far worse place than you are now.......unless of course, that is your intention.
Written by: Olowa on August 5, 2007 4:29 PM
Go Lorain,
Repeat after me, "Do as the police direct you, don't tell them to "F themselves" and you won't get tasered or arrested".
Then there would be no need for any investigations!
Josh himself said he did as he was told, left the building, did not talk back, and had no problems. Seems simple to me
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 5, 2007 4:47 PM
BlackCloud, I agree with you. You should do as the police tell you. However, some people have provided accounts that even if you listen to the police you may still be arrested and tasered.
As I said once earlier:
I think it would be in the best interest of the community to have an outside agency investigate this incident.
If police abused their power, then they must be held accountable.
If they acted properly, then let an neutral party clear them and we can all give them our support.
Written by: Go Lorain on August 5, 2007 5:04 PM
i am not a rabble rouser. but i just wanted everyone to know what happened that night.
there weren't any articles on the incident for days and i was afraid if i didn't contact every media outlet imaginable, it would have been swept under the rug. who's going to listen to a bunch of young kids? nobody.
i have spent enough time in the streets (and yes i was a good kid) to be jaded by the police and what their power means to them. i was a skateboarder and i had run-ins with the cops on a daily basis for at least a decade. only once were i ever in trouble in my life and it was because i was a skateboarder. honestly, if that's the type of activity our police force needs to spend their time monitoring, everybody needs to leave the city now. just pick up and go and never look back.
thankfully, i don't spend much of my time in lorain these days; my job keeps me away from home so i rarely get to know what's going on around the city. too bad the one night i'm home and trying to have a night out with all my family and friends it gets destroyed by the police. what a big suprise.
Written by: joshunderground on August 6, 2007 12:10 PM
Where did you skateboard as a kid? On the streets or in the parks damaging benches and curbs or owners store fronts? Why do kids think they can smart off to police, disobey their orders, and not think their will be a problem. I notice people under the age of 30 to 35 feel the world owes them something. I wish parents could retroactivley whoop their kids butts for the way they act. It's a whole new world and it stinks. Parents need to start being parents again.
Written by: lifelesson on August 6, 2007 12:49 PM
I don't think the Police destroyed the evening, I believe one drunken idiot, and a bunch of young "adults" that thought they had a right to question, disobey, and curse at "Da MAN" ruined your night.
While there is nothing wrong with reble rausing, and I fully support your right to free speech and understand your need to tell your side of the story, I think you are over looking who is truely at fault in this incident...
the "adults" that refused to obey the law.
After all, you did what you are told and you "escaped" without incident.
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 6, 2007 12:59 PM
LIFE,
Easy on the under 35 crowd, most of us are productive citizens that avoid trouble at all costs. After all we have families to raise.
Josh, pardon the spelling in the last post. On a side note, I am not agianst you or your right to tell your story I just disagree with your assesment of the situation and think if directions would have been followed none of this would have come to pass.
Look at it in another light, do you know how much more paper work this escalated incident caused the officers involved? We both know it would have been MUCH easier to get rid of the single idiot and be done with the night.
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 6, 2007 1:08 PM
Sorry about the age comment, was aimed at the parents who let the streets raise their kids. Tired of reading in the paper that parents are suing the city because the police have to keep their kids in check with tasers and NESSESARY FORCE!!!
Written by: lifelesson on August 6, 2007 1:21 PM
Title: Re: This Reporter Cares About Lorain
Seems to me like a few people on this board are more concerned at bashing the police and cleaning them up rather than cleaning up the streets.
There are a large amount of youth that have no respect these days for parental authority much less martial authority. If you want to stay out of trouble don't go to places it can find you easily.
Written by: Dustchild on August 1, 2007 5:16 PM
Prior post was actually a response to the Red Parrot thread. My apologies.
Written by: Dustchild on August 1, 2007 5:18 PM
Title: Tasers
Is it just me or oes anyone else think that the PD seems to have to use the tasers quite a bit. I know who they're dealing with, and I understand the concept of tasering, but it just seems to me that every article in the paper says that the tasers were used. I'm not questioning the good that the PD does in any way, shape or form, but let me pose it in the form of a scenario.
As an officer you come to rely on the taser as a quick and effective way to stop a person from 'struggling' when being arrested. So whenever someone starts to struggle you taser them. This requires justification so you, as anyone would want to make sure no repercussion come back on you. As a result your create an enviroment in your report that would lend one to belive that the only way to control the arrestee was to taser them. Now let me make this perfectly clear I understand that when you get arrested it's not because you were at home watching TV land, you obviously where
somewhere here there's some trouble, but there is a difference between disorderly conduct and aggravated disorderly conduct. Could that not be what may have happened downtown the other night? Sure seems to be a lot of people claiming the PD was a little over zealous.
Written by: big fan on August 2, 2007 7:56 AM
We live in a world where there is a lack of respect for authority-- maybe because some people in power have abused that priviledge. Maybe it is because no one wants to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions. Whatever the reason, I have seen police officers get verbally abused for no apparent reason and I haved seen young people hassled just because they are young and a little obnoxious.
You have to give respect to get respect. Whatever happened to the Golden Rule? Maybe in light of the violence that took place in other parts of the city this weekend, the police erred on the side of caution. Is it better to get tasered or shot?
I certainly don't have the answers to these qustions, I'm just concerned about the increased violence in the city of Lorain.
Written by: cardinalmom on August 2, 2007 9:21 AM
Police officers will use the taser to subdue criminals before actually putting there hands on them. The hands & arms of police officers have caused more injuries and deaths to criminals then tasers so why not taser them. I'm all for tasers, also heard they are making tasers for home protection also.
Written by: bigman on August 2, 2007 10:33 AM
How can you put trust in our officers if they are tasering individuals AFTER they are already face-down in handcuffs? Where's the rationalization there?
Written by: joshunderground on August 2, 2007 11:02 AM
My point is that you then have to justify the use. Seems to me that this may cause a little creative report writing.
Written by: big fan on August 2, 2007 11:20 AM
I think the police should put away the taser guns and pull out their real gun because while they are trying to speak in a calm manner(and I for one have witnessed this), the person being arrested tries to attack the police officer, spits on him, curses at him and threatens to get even with him when he is free. Yes I agree, throw those terrible taser guns away and bring out the real thing plus their club sticks. After shooting them, then I would give them a little love tap you know just to show them we care. Sound better?
Written by: Lucabrasi on August 2, 2007 12:42 PM
If you don't want to be tasered, don't give the police a reason to use them. It's not like the police just drive around and pick a place to start tasering people. They are usually called to diffuse a situation. They should use rubber bullets- shoot first and ask questions later. That will get the drug dealers and trash to take notice. Society is too soft on criminals. We need to toughen up, and stop being so politically correct.
Written by: 503mike on August 2, 2007 12:54 PM
The responses here are exactly why I wasn't going to say what I said. If you read my posts I'm all for tough on crime, throw the idiots out of the schools etc, etc so please don't think
I'm soft on these issues.
Let me ask it this way- what is minimal actions by the 'bad guy' that requires the use of a taser? What is the maximum
physical allowance that doesn't require it. Does everyone that gets tasered get a resisting arrest charge?
If not whay not? If so why?
Again my first comment simply stated that it SEEMS to me by what I read that they use these a lot. Just asked if anyone else thought so.
By the way if I had it my way we wouldn't use tasers we'd beat the crap out of the meatballs until they moved out of town.
Written by: big fan on August 2, 2007 3:04 PM
Here is the link to woio19, where they show civilian photos of two Lorain police officers effecting an arrest on a drunken male. WARNING THE PHOTOS ARE GRAPHIC!
http://www.19actionnews.com/Global/SearchResults.asp?vendor=wss&qu=lorain+police
Written by: lorena on August 2, 2007 3:35 PM
Those photos are not graphic, it's called justice. She called the police for help and thats what she got. So what ifthat cop had his knee is in his back, was the guy the kicking or spitting? And the cop that waves hello in the photo big deal he has nothing to hide, nothing they did was wrong. They stopped an intoxicated guy from going into his garage after they told him not to. I have alot of weapons laying around my garage(shovels,pick,matchete,knives) Do you want to see graphic pictures drive down 28th a look at all that graffitti or the 42nd st. bridge THATS GRAPHIC
Written by: bigman on August 2, 2007 9:04 PM
Message: Not only was he an intoxicated guy, but one with a history of being out of control when he drank.
Does anyone know of anybody that is fully coherent after he's been drinking a lot? Don't they tend to get loud and obnoxious and tend not to listen?
What are the odds that this is what happened here? Police told him to get down, he didn't, one thing lead to another, he got tasered, and fell on his face.
Possible?
HeneryHawk on August 2, 2007 9:08 PM
Graphic? Graphic is the murder on Elyria Ave!! Graphic is the murder at McDonalds!! By the way, the picture shows a Police Officer holding a taser gun. You must be very talented to be able to see movement from a still picture. As for the foot on the back, it was the best thing for that man, he wasn't going anywhere.
Written by: lifelesson on August 2, 2007 9:21 PM
Seems like way too many people are worried about how the poor fellows that victimize others are treated now a days....WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS! That is why this city and country have become what they have become. Instead of using tasers maybe guns would be better. It definitely would keep the scum from commiting crimes over and over again!!
Written by: justaneastsider on August 2, 2007 10:49 PM
I just love these women who like to get beat up and then "drop charges" or put the blame on others. How many times do these "domestic violence" victims not show up in court etc. Quit wasting my tax dollars and putting officers in harms way by calling the police if you continue this cycle.
Written by: ragazzalorain on August 3, 2007 1:26 PM
There is only one solution to stop these woman from dropping charges and that is start charging them for not testifying. It has happen before but not enough. It's sad because we all know some one who has been abused and they should call the police, but alot of these ladies are calling the police for simple arguments or revenge.
Written by: bigman on August 4, 2007 9:51 AM
Title: The Real/True Story At Red Parrot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the story I believe, after talking to other cops. Those arrested were unable to take responsibility for their actions!!!!!! The OIC that handled that incident that night, is a good officer with an unblemished career.
Written by: lorena on August 9, 2007 3:05 PM
I must agree with the people who feel that an independent investigation is necessary.
The article you just provided was based solely on the police report, in other words, it is the Police Dept's side of the story. If we are to believe that, then a whole lot of people in attendance, people who are witnesses, not defendants, are lying (including the bar owner). If we believe the witnesses, then the police are lying.
I was not there so I cannot say. But what raised a red flag to me in these reports is after the police arrested the one troublemaker, they remained onsite waiting for their shift supervisor arrived (why???) and then decided they had to do a walk through (apparently after calling in considerably more manpower - why???) to make sure no one had a complaint that needed to be addresses (since when do police go out soliciting complaints where no known crime has been committed)? They also mentioned that there appeared to be underaged people milling around - I don't recall seeing any reports of arrests for underage drinking. On the surface these sound like lame, made-up excuses used to justify subsequent actions, and I see very little sense in any of them.
Quite frankly, from the outside looking in, and based solely on these limited reports, it looks like the police went into the Red Parrot intending to cause problems, and it was not initiated at the patrol officer level, but from somewhere higher up in the chain of command. This may not (and I surely hope not) be the case, but it presents the appearance of wrongdoing, and that's why it warrants an independent investigation to determine the truth, one way or another.
Written by: Bucyruss on August 9, 2007 3:50 PM
Maybe they waited for the supervisor in case they needed more statements, not letting any stone unturned. Maybe the entered to see if the juviniles were drinking, they found none so none were arrested. The police have every right to walk thru the bar if they feel problems may arise. It's just like if they were to drive around the neighborhood, letting people know they are around.
Written by: lifelesson on August 9, 2007 5:34 PM
"The OIC that handled that incident that night, is a good officer with an unblemished career."
James Wolford does not have an "unblemished carrer"
5/11/03 - Fighting with another officer on duty
2/17/05 - Told officer to "go cite that idiot" for a traffic ticket. Overheard by Chief
5/17/06 - Called Judge Mihok vulgar names outside the courtroom. (10 day suspension)
*source: Lorain police records and court files. reported by the Plain Dealer
Written by: kalin on August 10, 2007 2:05 AM
I agree, there may be good reasons for what happened and an independent investigation may indeed prove it. Faith in our police force will be restored/strengthened. I sincerely hope this is how things turn out. But if this is just swept under the rug, the dust cloud will remain.
Written by: Bucyruss on August 10, 2007 9:26 AM
Title: Civil Disobedience At Red Parrot
It's apparent, these rich college kids think they are better then the police, and could do as they please. Sgt. Wolford should be given a commendation for his coolness under pressure, and and abilities to restore calm during total mayhem!
Written by: lorena on August 10, 2007 10:03 AM
If a gang banger tells a cop to "eat a d..." and flips him off police would be well within their rights to arrest him. No one would say a word.
BUT, since this was a white college the Police over reacted?
I know if I tell a police officer to "eat a d..." and flip him off, I will get hand cuffed. If my buddy gets P.O.'d and puts his hand on the arresting officers back to "question" why I am getting arrested, he is most likely getting arrested also.
I don't understand why these kids think there is a different set rules for white college kids?
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 10, 2007 10:36 AM
You hit it on the nail. I think you are absolutely correct.
Written by: ragazzalorain on August 10, 2007 11:32 AM
How do you know if these kids are rich or not??? That is a pretty broad statement to say that because they are white college kids, they are rich. As a matter of fact, a lot of young adults that are in college are not rich by any means. Also, their were 9 people arrested that night and some probably should have been and some probably should not have been arrested. The issue at hand as far as I am concerned is not whether or not that she have been arrested. The issue is the force used in arresting these people and the continued beating, choking and tasering people that were already handcuffed. If the cops were right in handling this situation then why have most, if not all of the charged individuals, have been offered to have the charges dropped if they sign an agreement to not sue the City of Lorain. Sounds like someone in the prosecutors office knows what really happened that night and is trying to sweep this thing under the rug before it costs the city any more embarassment or money. Ironically, these kids refused to sign the agreement. Now if you knew that you were wrong, and just wanted to get the charges dropped, wouldnt you just sign it? I think that says a lot about what happened at the Red Parrot.
Written by: big al on August 10, 2007 12:41 PM
talk about a rabble rouser...
Lorena wrote: "It's apparent, these rich college kids think they are better then the police, and could do as they please. Sgt. Wolford should be given a commendation for his coolness under pressure, and and abilities to restore calm during total mayhem!"
could you please explain what you mean by "total mayhem"?
i just gagged at reading this.
it's apparent that i live in a different world than most.
i've never met a 'rich' college kid in my life. i dare you to go to a campus and find one. you'd be hard pressed.
Written by: joshunderground on August 10, 2007 2:07 PM
I don't understand some of the posts I'm seeing. I think the Pope, Mother Theresa, three priests and two rabis could testify as witnesses, and if one police officer said differently, you would believe the officer - everytime. It appears you think that the police are ALWAYS right, can do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want. That's the attitude I'm sensing from some of these posts. If you truly believe this, then you have no concept of what America and our Constitution are all about, and why many lives were sacrificed creating and defending her - OR - perhaps you (or members of your family) are police officers. That could explain some of what I'm reading as well.
By all accounts (including the police) this was a group of law-abiding citizens peacefully enjoying a concert until 10 officers walked in (to this small establishment). Then according to those officers it turned into a riot - a fact which has been disputed by many people who were there.
I don't know what the staffing level for Lorain police is at midnight on a weekend, but I have to believe they called in on-duty officers from all over the city to take part in this "operation". An operation which, even by the police's own account, was initiated on a group of peaceful people enjoying a concert - WHY WHY WHY ???
My hunch (for what its worth) is that the Red Parrot tends to attract some rather strange-looking people, especially during band nights such as this. Because of the smoking law, patrons often spill out into the sidewalk to smoke or get some fresh air. This probably annoys the police and possibly other's in the city. So have the police go in, make a few arrests, call it a riot, and use that as the basis to have the bar declared a nuisance and subsequently closed.
Of course if a few innocent citizens end up with criminal records and legal bills, well, that's just collateral damage. And besides, they're just freaky-looking college students who are probably doing drugs and committing other crimes anyway, so who cares - right?
Written by: Bucyruss on August 10, 2007 3:41 PM
I read the comments on TMCnews.com. I for one don't care what you look like or what kind of music you listen to. If you tell a cop to "eat a d....", touch him while he is arresting your buddy, demand to know why your buddy is being arrested or fail to do what an officer tells you, you are asking for trouble.
As far as being rich, the quote from TMCnews from the young lady, "Police came in expecting to find poor uneducated patrons" that would lead me to believe that she views herself as being both educated and not poor.
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 10, 2007 3:55 PM
From the Plain Dealer 10/11/06:
Rivera noted that Wolford had a history of conflicts with other officers, supervisors and other public officials.
Wolford received a letter in his file for fighting with another officer in May 2003. In February 2005, he received a written reprimand after Rivera overheard him call a motorist an "idiot."
In 1995, Rivera fired Wolford for using excessive force during an arrest. An arbitrator reinstated Wolford after a federal jury cleared him in a civil lawsuit.
Written by: bill1351 on August 10, 2007 5:23 PM
Message: Wow, I had never heard of TMCnewsnet before or read their story on this from yesterday (http://tmcnews.blogspot.com). Looks like my hunch may have been right on the money.
Written by: Bucyruss on August 10, 2007 6:12 PM
Message: These are not kids. Notice that everyone arrested was well over 21 and well past "college age." The one patron has stated that she is a graduate student to be a teacher. Hardly a smart arse rich white kid.
Joshua Currier 27
Mark Anthony Julian 41
Douglas Strausbaugh 23
Laura Zawistowski 23
Sean Fish 21
Phillip Martin 23
Joseph Fish 23
LAW: If you are arrested, you have rights to protect yourself whether you are guilty or innocent.
LAW: While a police officer may use reasonable physical force to make an arrest, he or she cannot use more force than is necessary to restrain a person and prevent escape. TAZERING A SUSPECT IN THE BACK OF A POLICE CAR IS ILLEGAL IN OHIO!!! This officer acted as judge, jury and close to exicutioner.
Since 2001, more than 150 people nationwide have died after they were shocked by Tasers, according to Amnesty International.
LAW: At the time of arrest, the officer must tell you why you are being arrested and how the arrest is authorized.
Written by: kalin on August 10, 2007 6:24 PM
Message: If you don't want the police there to handle the problem, don't call them. If you want to stay out of trouble, don't go to places where trouble can easily find you. If you don't want trouble, don't talk cr!p at a police officer either. Maybe they weren't "kids" but there are a lot of "adults" in this city who act like them.
The threat of a lawsuit does not mean squat either. Anyone and everyone can start a lawsuit these days, you just need the right ambulance (excuse me, police) chase with a grudge.
Bring out dirty laundry on a police officer such as the one mentioned doesn't do much except avert attention from the real issue. If you were in his position there would be points in your career where you wouldn't be blameless either. Especially after you arrest a punk a few times and the lousy judicial system keeps letting him back out. I'd call the judge quite a few names, too, letting known mulitple offenders back out......and don't think for a second it hasn't happened either.
People in this frickin city are more concerned with criticizing the cops than cleaning up the streets. Figures and is a good reason why people are leaving this city going to h!ll in a handbasket.
Written by: Olowa on August 10, 2007 8:36 PM
Message: The police are called to handle problems, not create them. Have any of you seen the pictures taken that night of the abuse?? Oh no, you haven't because the police officers took the camera used to take pictures and when it reappeared (after no one at the station could find it for days) the pictures were gone. Last time I checked that's tampering. I haven't seen pictures but I've seen video. Video of a so called "riot" in which people were filing out of a bar because of fear of the police. Video of a young man, who was supposedly rioting, standing quite still watching the police officers kick a young man who was already handcuffed and on the ground surronded by other cops.
Maybe the young man who said whatever vulger thing he did to the cops should have been handled. BUT the problem everyone who was there at the Red Parrot, or seen footage from it, has is that innocent people were not only arrested, but beat and tasered. I had 2 brothers there that night who are much younger than me and good guys. When my one brother inquired about why my other brother was being arrested(he was the one that used the vulgarity to the officer so maybe he deserved it), he was thrown off of the stage, punched, AND CHOKED TO THE POINT OF UNCONSCIOUS. HE WAS THEN HANDCUFFED AND LEFT TO LAY ON THE FLOOR WITH PEOPLE TRYING TO GET OUT OF THERE BECAUSE THE FEAR OF THE POLICE. ONCE HE FINALLY WAS TAKEN TO THE POLICE CAR AND WAS UPSET BECAUSE MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE WERE BEING ARRESTED, HE WAS THEN TASERED. YES!! TASERED!! SITTING IN THE BACK OF A CRUISER, HANDCUFFED AND RESTRAINED. HE NOT ONLY WAS TASERED BY ONE COP BUT ANOTHER COP FELT LEFT OUT SO HE OPENED THE DOOR AND TASERED HIM TOO!! SEEMS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO TAKE THE TASERS AWAY OR EDUCATE THEM NOT TO USE THEM ON A 5'5" YOUNG MAN WHO WAS RESTRAINED ALREADY.
Police officers have a duty to protect the innocent, not attack. I don't know very many of these young adults that were there but the one's I do know that were assulted and tasered are good kids. These charges could ruin there life and careers. Grad students, licensed finanical consultant..people who could lose their livelyhood and did nothing to diserve it. And who really knows why?? This has nothing to do with race or economic status. THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN TO ANYONE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOUR RICH OR POOR, WHITE, ORANGE, FAT, THIN..WHATEVER, IT JUST SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.
As I said, 2 of these young men were my brothers. To think that I could've been planning one of my brothers funerals right now makes me sick. CHOKED to the point of UNCONSCIOUS..bottom line...it was uncalled for and unnecessary. I can't wait for the truth to come out, if the prosecutors let it out. They may throw it out because they realize the people who should be the defendents are the cops involved.
Written by: nikii2878 on August 10, 2007 11:56 PM
Message: Especially after you arrest a punk a few times and the lousy judicial system keeps letting him back out. I'd call the judge quite a few names, too, letting known mulitple offenders back out......and don't think for a second it hasn't happened either.
Let me change a few words:
Especially after you fire and reprimand an officer a few times and the lousy judicial system keeps letting him back on the force. ...letting known mulitple police offenders back on the streets......and don't think for a second it hasn't happened either.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Written by: kalin on August 11, 2007 4:28 AM
Message: 2/17/05 - Told officer to "go cite that idiot" for a traffic ticket. Overheard by Chief
5/17/06 - Called Judge Mihok vulgar names outside the courtroom. (10 day suspension)
Calling someone an "idiot" ..... wow, that is some serious stuff. That shoud be twenty years. Calling Judge Mihok names, too, wow. How do they let these guys stay on the force with things like that on their record?
Like, Mr. Wolford, there is a man in your list of arrested people who also has a record along with the bar owner, I might add. Since your excellent at looking things up, look those up. Not exactly angels, but I suppose you'll find a way to excuse that behaviour just like you'll find a way to excuse telling an officer to "eat a d..."
The motive here, as far as I can tell, is to tar and feather the police force whether they are guilty or not. Media outlets love to label the "accused" (or indited) guilty before trial (especially when it is a civil servant) and they love sob stories. You've got them both.
Civil disobedience has escalated since the 60s and disrespect for the authorities is pretty commonplace these days. You find it glorified on TV, literature (if u can call it that), and music. It's the "cool" thing to do.
Written by: Olowa on August 11, 2007 11:17 AM
Message: We also, forget, the attorney leading the charge, has a criminal record himself. That dates back to 1991. Let's bring that up.
If I had been there, if someone told me to eat a "D", I would have arrested him to, for disorderly conduct and persisting. If he squirmed, I would have tacked on Resisting Arrest as well.
We all forget, that Sgt. Wolford took a knife, 5 yrs ago, and it almost hit his heart and killed hime serving the citizens of Lorain.
Written by: lorena on August 11, 2007 11:36 AM
Message: This is who, I'd want handling my case!!
Michael Camera
07/24/1991 FILING INFORMATION FILED.
07/24/1991 FILING WAIVER OF INDICTMENT FILED BY DEFT.
07/24/1991 FILING WAIVER OF RIGHT TO JURY TRIAL FILED BY DEFT.
07/24/1991 (LMM) THE COURT HEREBY ACCEPTS THE WAIVER OF INDICTMENT PRESENTED IN OPEN COURT THIS DAY BY MICHAEL CAMERA AND HIS COUNSEL, CHARLES ADAMS. THE COURT ACCEPTS THIS WAIVER AFTER THE DEFENDANT HAS BEEN ADVISED PURSUANT TO CRIMINAL RULE 7(A)OF THE NATURE OF THE CHARGE AGAINST HIM & OF HIS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO HAVE THIS MATTER PRESENTED BEFORE THE LORAIN COUNTY GRAND JURY. THE COURT FINDS THAT THE DEFENDANT HAS KNOWINGLY, VOLUNTARILY, INTELLIGENTLY & INTENTIONALLY WAIVED IN OPEN COURT HIS RIGHT TO HAVE ANY EVIDENCE OF CRIMINAL
07/24/1991 FILING (CONTINUED)...WRONGDOINGS AND THIS MATTER PRESENTED TO THE GRAND JURY OF THIS COUNTY. (LMM) VOLUME # 522 PAGE # 114
07/24/1991 (LMM) DEFENDANT APPEARED IN OPEN COURT WITH COUNSEL & ENTERS A PLEA OF GUILTY TO THE INFORMATION FILED THIS DATE ALLEGING THE VIOLATION OF THE CRIME OF PERJURY, OHIO REVISED CODE SECTION 2921.11(A), A FELONY IN THE 3RD DEGREE, WHICH PLEA IS ACCEPTED. THIS MATTER IS REFERRED TO JUDGE MCGOUGH BY LOTTERY FOR SENTENCING. THE DEFENDANT IS REFERRED TO THE LORAIN COUNTY PROBATION FOR A PRE SENTENCE EVALUATION & REPORT. BOND IS SET AT $5,000.00 PERSONAL. VOLUME # 522 PAGE # 115
07/24/1991 BOND BOND POSTED: $5,000.00 PERSONAL BOND SIGNED AND FILED BY DEFENDANT.
09/11/1991 (LMM) THIS CASE IS SCHEDULED FOR SENTENCING BEFORE THE HONORABLE JUDGE MARK K. WIEST ON SEPTEMBER 19, 1991 AT 10:00 A.M. VOLUME # 529 PAGE # 299
09/19/1991 SENTENCING DEFENDANT IN COURT WITH COUNSEL FOR SENTENCING. DEFENDANT SENTENCED TO ONE YEAR IN THE LORAIN CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTE AND PAY FINE OF $1,000.00 ON COUNT I. DEFT. ENTITLED TO A CREDIT OF DAYS PURSUANT TO R.C. 2967.191, TO BE APPLIED TO HIS SENTENCE IF CONFINED LCI. SEE JOURNAL. (MARK K. WIEST) VOLUME # 530 PAGE # 274
09/19/1991 SENT/CONV C/C OF INDICTMENT, JOURNAL ENTRY, AND SENTENCE ISSUED TO LORAIN COUNTY SHERIFF ALONG WITH WARRANT TO CONVEY TO: LORAIN CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION
09/20/1991 (LMM) (LMM FOR JUDGE WEIST) AT THE REQUEST OF THE DEFENDANT AND FOR GOOD CUASE SHOWN, THE DEFENDANT IS GRANTED A CONTACT VISIT AND/OR SECURED VISIT WITH MOTHER,MARY CAMERA AND WIFE, KATHY CAMERA. THIS SHALL BE DONE ACCORDING TO THE MANPOWER AVAILABLE, AT SUCH TIME AND UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES AS DEFINED BY THE LORAIN COUNTY SHERIFF. CERT. COPY ISSUED TO SHERIFF. VOLUME # 530 PAGE # 383
09/24/1991 RETURN SHERIFF'S RETURN - I CONVEYED THE DEFENDANT TO PLACE DESIGNATED ON SEPTEMBER 20, 1991 MARTIN J. MAHONY, SHFF
10/02/1991 WRIT FI FA ISSUED TO LORAIN COUNTY SHERIFF.
10/02/1991 FI FA FI FA RETURNED - NOTHING FOUND, NOT SATISFIED. MARTIN J. MAHONY, SHERIFF.
10/16/1991 FILING LETTER RECEIVED FROM THOMAS J. MOYER, CHIEF JUSTICE, SUPREME COURT OF OHIO REGARDING MICHAEL J. CAMERA SUSPENSION OF PRACTICE OF LAW. SEE JOURNAL. VOLUME # 534 PAGE # 314
10/18/1991 FILING PURSUANT TO DEFENDANT'S PLEA SHEET SIGNED ON JULY 24,1991, THE $3,000.00 FORFEITED BY THE DEFT. IS ORDERED DEPOSITED INTO THE LORAIN COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S LAW ENFORCEMENT TRUST ACCOUNT. (JUDGE MARK K. WIEST) VOLUME # 535 PAGE # 26
10/22/1991 MOTION MOTION FILED BY DEFT. FOR SHOCK PROBATION, ORAL HEARING REQUESTED. DEFT'S PRESENCE REQUESTED AT HEARING.
10/29/1991 FILING STATE'S RESPONSE TO DEFT'S MOTION FOR SHOCK PROBATION FILED.
11/14/1991 FILING (MARK K. WIEST, JUDGE) ON 10/22/91, THE DEFT. FILED A MOTION FOR SHOCK PROBATION PURSUANT TO R.C. 2947.061. THE COURT REVIEWED THE MOTION AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS. A HEARING WILL NOT BE HELD ON THE MOTION BECAUSE THE COURT DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT SHOCK PROBATION IS APPROPRIATE IN THIS CASE. IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED THAT THE MOTION FOR SHOCK PROBATION BE DENIED. VOLUME # 538 PAGE # 371
03/28/1994 FILING NOTICE RECEIVED FROM OHIO SUPREME COURT.
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Written by: lorena on August 11, 2007 11:56 AM
Message: Olawa says...
"I'd call the judge quite a few names, too, letting known mulitple offenders back out......"
I have stayed out of this debate but couldn't resist this one. It's not okay to call a Police Officer a name, which I totally agree with. Yet you state that you would call the Judge quite a few names. Talking out of both sides of your mouth there aren't ya? So what you are saying is...It is okay to disrespect a Judge, just not a police officer? Nice message you are sending out.
Written by: westsideresident on August 11, 2007 3:12 PM
Message: Please note that the offense, dear sir or ma'am, the offense was spoken out of the courtroom and not in front of Judge Mihok. I, just like yourself (unless you are perfect, don't mind me if you are) have called people names before when they were not around. Especially in the heat of a moment.
My words are consistent if you would take the time to put them in context and also look at the offense I was referring to with Mr. Wolford. I wouldn't do it to a judge or police officer in the line of duty. Your confusion on the matter is forgiveable. Have a wonderful day.
Written by: Olowa on August 11, 2007 5:28 PM
Message: "Please note that the offense, dear sir or ma'am, the offense was spoken out of the courtroom and not in front of Judge Mihok. I, just like yourself (unless you are perfect, don't mind me if you are) have called people names before when they were not around. Especially in the heat of a moment."
No, I am not perfect but my parents raised me to have respect. I can tell you that "sure", I have used the name calling game probably more lately with all that our city is going through. I can assure you of this though, I do not disrespect authority, may it be a police officer or a Judge...would not do it to their face nor behind their backs.
Do I think Mr. Wolford was wrong in disrespecting the Judge? Absolutely!! Unfortuately for him (by his own choice)...I believe he along with his fellow officers are held to a higher standard considering they are law enforcement. The "heat of the moment" is no excuse for the name calling and lack of respect. That to me is very juvenile and speaks volumes about his character. If has no regard for one of our Judges, do you think he has any for the common folks??? Hmmmm....
Written by: westsideresident on August 11, 2007 6:29 PM
Message: The police would not have been called to Spitzer Marina like they were to the Red Parrot. Spitzer would not have allowed entertainers that cause trouble to play intheir establishment. For some reason the Red Parrot needs to draw that type of crowd to stay in business. It was a sad night for the city, another bad business keeping the city down.
Written by: lifelesson on August 11, 2007 6:56 PM
Message: Let's first start off by saying that I am not on the high level that you are, dear sir or ma'am. I've seen a few judges in low and high profile cases do things that seem totally contrary to serving the public good and I have called them names. I've also seen judges who think that their pedestal is simply for public TV and the upstart to an acting career. The goof during the whole Anna Nicole Smith incident is probably pretty well known and I use as an example. It is my personal opinion that he was a doof (and i yelled at the radio). Perhaps you thought him an upstanding citizen, so be it.
Mr. Wolford's blemish most likely pales in comparison (and is hardly a public threat) to his service in the community and to his country. However, I've noticed how easy it is to want to tar and feather the people who are out there to protect you and to leave the citizens spotless. Lawsuits and investigations are a dime a dozen these days. Just get the right ambulance (excuse me, police) chaser. The media coverage alone paints them guilty before the trial is begun and perhaps that is the whole point.....HMMMMMMMM
Also note, that no one but perhaps I will mention a civil lawsuit that was against Mr. Wolford prior. This put a mark against him in the media. Mr. Wolford, however, was found innocent of the claims made prior. Too bad that didn't get as much coverage as the inditement itself. But again, perhaps that is the whole point....HMMMMMMMMM
If the police do their job and subdue the problem, as they did, they are guilty. The people whine. If they do not then people are asking "Where in the bloody he?? are the police?". The people whine. The police are told by citizens to "Eat a D..." and then the citizens whine and cry at the consequences of their actions.
This double edged sword is the crux of the issue that Lorain and it's citizens are going to have to deal with. You don't want the police to do their job because it isn't how you would do it or it inconveinences you. Fine, criminalize the police department and deal with the consequences (higher crime rates, whinier citizens, more people leaving, etc.)
East 31st is a nice example, eh? You can't walk around after 8pm without the fear of being confronted by a gang (i mean, "adults"). Someone gets shot, stabbed, or killed. This is followed by the public outcry, the media get's their "GLORY" story and then, where in the he?? were the police? Why didn't they do something to stop it? They knew this person had a criminal record, blah, blah, blah.
Criminalize your police department instead of supporting them and you're going to attract more of it. Your choice.
Have a wonderful day.
Written by: Olowa on August 11, 2007 8:33 PM
Message: I support the LPD. I do not condone "inappropriate behavior" by police officers, whatever the offense may be.
Sorry you had to waste your time out in left field. Obviously we don't agree and that's ok.
Written by: westsideresident on August 11, 2007 9:52 PM
Message: The beatings will continue until morale improves.
An effective police department is a
respected police department.
Written by: Guidepost on August 11, 2007 10:51 PM
Message: The officers behaviour in my eyes was appropriate. We have too much touchy, feely, sensitive bs going on and some "kids" just need a good kick in the a-se. Not enough a-se whoopins' and discipline is likely a reason for this incident.
If you don't think this incident is just a smaller microcosm of a bigger issue that involves the citizens of the city, then you're in left field. Oh yea, and I don't believe in wasting time either.
Have a wonderful day.
Written by: Olowa on August 12, 2007 10:03 AM
Message: What if the following had been done at the Red Parrot rather than what WAS done:
LPD sees what they think are underage drinkers so asks the owner to turn on all lights and ask the band to stop playing. The owner or even the officer in charge then makes an announcement that the LPD is going to check ID. Now everyone knows what is going on and the noise level is down to allow communication. If they fear an underage drinker will escape from a front or rear door have an officer or two positioned at the doors inside. IF the person appears underage
and IF they appear to have been drinking then check their ID before they leave. Officers can be checking those who choose to remain.
Written by: Guidepost on August 12, 2007 3:24 PM
Message: all of this be kind to the criminal crap is making me want to puke.....please,those young punks got what they deserved!!!!
Written by: demsquasher on August 12, 2007 6:27 PM
Message: What if this happened?
The band stops playing. The band members don't shout derogatory things to the police. People let the police do their business with buttoned-up lips, they don't interfere with an arrest,and the police finish with their inquiries with no interruptions, and full cooperation of the public.
NOW, how many people get arrested, and do any of them get tasered?
By my math, the guy who the police were called for in the first place.
And, NO.
But, hey, what the heck do I know?
Written by: HeneryHawk on August 12, 2007 6:48 PM
Message: "all of this be kind to the criminal crap is making me want to puke.....please,those young punks got what they deserved!!!!"
I agree, forget the legal system. Let the police hand out the punishments. Getting tasered is just a lesson. Crooks could just taken out back and beaten, but a 150,000 volts in the back of a police cruiser will teach them to fall in step and obey their masters.
I want to compliment everyone who has been part of this discussion. There has been a good debate without yelling at each other and name calling. I think we can all agree that a little time in court will sort this all out. Also the LPD is not a bad bunch of guys as a whole. Neither are groups of young adults who go to concerts.
I believe the trial starts on Sept 13th. I think I will have to go and see how the police story and the story of the patrons compare.
Written by: kalin on August 12, 2007 8:07 PM
Message: Actually, a Harborwalk resident did call the police on the Spitzer Marina Yacht Club Party on Saturday night and an officer did respond.
Written by: ragazzalorain on August 13, 2007 11:06 AM
Message: I agree. The officers did what they had to do. Act up and tell an officer to "eat a d%ck" then face the consequences. get over it. These "adults" are mad because they could not get away with something for once in their life.
Written by: ragazzalorain on August 13, 2007 11:09 AM
Message: I totally agree with your statement. These kids came from backgrounds, where they have been pampered and given what they want, all their lives, and have a sense of entitlement.
They were like little toddlers, who's parent's turned off Barney, and couldn't handle it. Maybe Olowa was right. Some tough love, or 50,000 volts to the leg, would have straightened them out. Being that it was summer, draping them over the front hood of a stationery running cruiser, would have helped too.
Written by: lorena on August 13, 2007 11:45 AM
Message: One thing that we all need to remember is that none of the individuals were "KIDS". They are all adults!
Some were there as band members, I heard that there were 4 or 5 bands playing that night.
What I have heard is that some of these individuals/adults did not want to leave their band equipment behind and the police did not want to hear anything about that. The equipment is very expensive and I would not want to leave my equipment alone either.
I think that the police needed to listen before they decided to start making arrests.
Written by: LCB on August 13, 2007 3:06 PM
Message: If we all there, we would know what happened. We can not take the side of the police or the individuals 100% unless we were there.
Written by: LCB on August 13, 2007 3:10 PM
Message: That would be in a perfect world. Today that would never happen.
Written by: LCB on August 13, 2007 3:12 PM
Message: a few of my own interjections:
Lorena, any weight your opinions may hold on this subject mean nothing to me anymore. i love how you can make judgements so easily about people you don't know.
i hope someday when you're spending quality time at the port or international fest that the police randomly begin to arrest and beat you and your family...and you have no idea why it's happening, maybe then will you understand the gravity of the situation.
who is defending the fact they made a rude statement? even the guy that was arrested seems to say that he deserved to be arrested...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=diS6TcyPM3Q
if you go to a sporting event (ie, Indians or Browns game) and the police run across a drunk acting a fool, is it standard procedure to stop play and/shut the place down?
i think not.
i have only been in here to provide MY side of the story and i have not bashed any police, nor praised them.
neither will i still.
i have not praised anyone's actions that were in the club that night.
neither will i still.
i want the public to know that from what i witnessed, martial law ensued without cause.
regardless of what was said by one man, or what one man did to a window, or what one other man asked of an officer. there was no justice and nor were the officers provoked to arrest the rest of many in attendance. i counted at least 13 arrested and only nine have actually been? i've heard some were driven a few blocks and then let out. very strange. i've heard that a camera was confiscated and pictures were erased. very weird.
but like i say, i'm not saying this is all truth. i believe only half of what i see and nothing of what i hear.
literally, here's the focus of this conversation..which has been lost completely:
- some people may have deserved what happened.
- some people definitely did not.
end of the story.
on a side note:
our police need to learn empathy before they should ever be allowed 'to protect and serve'.
Written by: joshunderground on August 13, 2007 3:34 PM
Message: 'The equipment is very expensive and I would not want to leave my equipment alone either.
I think that the police needed to listen before they decided to start making arrests.'
Problem is, once you break the law, and are placed under arrest, you forfeit any freedom you had BEFORE you were arrested.
'Excuse me, Officer, but before you place me in the back of the cruiser, I have to go hide the scales and the cocaine I have hidden under my pillow. I'll be right back.'
I don't see that happening, do you?
LMAO
Written by: HeneryHawk on August 13, 2007 4:30 PM
Message: "Like, Mr. Wolford, there is a man in your list of arrested people who also has a record along with the bar owner, I might add. Since your excellent at looking things up, look those up."
well i did look into bar owner Mitch Karczewski. He has no criminal record or liquor violations. if you know something i don't, let me know.
There have been alot of claims earlier in the Red Parrot disscusions that were not true. Suggestion that someone has a record, when they don't, just to smear them is libel and defamation.
In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.
Written by: kalin on August 14, 2007 12:42 AM
According to Lorain Muni Court, on 10/21/2001, Ptlm. James Wolford arrested Mitch Karczewski at 1:36 AM for Disturbing the Peace. The charge was later dropped on the reommendation of the prosecutor. Seems these two have some history...
Written by: bill1351 on August 14, 2007 2:09 AM
Of course charges were dropped, just another false arrest by Mr. Wolford. There is a history of this as well as a history between the two. Shows that Mr. Wolford has had it out for owners of live music venues dating back 6 years ago. Have heard that Wolford also issued a false citation against Mitch and the flying machine for serving after hours which was thrown out by prosecution as well. Story goes that the ticket was written because there was a man in the club after hours sitting at the bar. Wolford's argument for the citation was "If we weren't here, you would be serving that man". The history of these two is why Wolford sent his men into the parrot July 28th to "shut this place down". He actually tries to take credit for the flying machine closing as if it was his goal to do so. Reality is that a venue that size is a major expense and the economy in Lorain, well, just plain sucks. Its much easier to keep a smaller club going with lower overhead in this county. How can you even use a charge that was thrown out and dropped as an example of a criminal background? Musicians have often in the past been cited for noise disturbances. Does that mean that we are all criminals for being musically inclined?
Written by: deadringerbrian on August 14, 2007 9:24 AM
"There have been alot of claims earlier in the Red Parrot disscusions that were not true. Suggestion that someone has a record, when they don't, just to smear them is libel and defamation.
In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism."
Wonderful. Inadequate research on the part of one individual now gives them the right to spew about libel, slander, and defamation. You're doing wonders for your case here but since you seem hardly capable of finding these records yourself let me show you:
The Bar Owner:
Mitchell Karcewski
10/29/2001 - Disturbing The Peace
07/31/2000 - After Hours Sales
Mark Anthony Julian
(He's on your list)
11/1/2002 - Telephone Harassment
11/4/2002 - Criminal Trespass
If what is on the public record is slander, then I'm guilty. Otherwise, I'd suggest you hone in your research skills.
Written by: Olowa on August 15, 2007 9:20 AM
MORE GARBAGE!!!!!
http://cgb.obworld.com/index.cfm?d=news&p=topic&topic=News&start=5
Written by: lorena on August 15, 2007 3:27 PM
The full story if you fully checked your facts.
The Bar Owner:
Mitchell Karcewski
10/29/2001 - Disturbing The Peace
(not arrested. ticketed by wolford and went to court. judge threw the case out on grounds that it was "unjustifiaable")
07/31/2000 - After Hours Sales (ticketed by wolford and time on ticket said "2:25 AM." Case dismissed because patrons are allowed to finish their drink up untill 2:30 AM)
Just because officer wolford writes a ticket, does not mean the owner was guilty of anything. This seems to be what happed at the Parrot. He is not the judge or jury. No one has been proven guilty of anything. Therefore, there is no criminal record!
As for the other person in your post, I have not researched them.
Previously someone posted that the police had been called to the Parrot 7 times this year. This is not correct. If you have the dates and offences, I would love to know what you have.
Written by: kalin on August 15, 2007 5:52 PM
Actually on the Lorain Muni Court Records page it reads like this:
Violation Information
File Date: 07/31/2000
Ticket Number: 06803
Violation Date: 07/31/2000
Violation Time: 2:36
Violation Description: Aft Hour Sales Section #: 529.08
Degree: Minor Misdemeanor
Points:
BMV Offense Code:
Waive Amount:
Violation time of 2:36. I'm also seeing on that page defendant found guilty and there was a fine attached to it. Where are you getting your information?
Written by: Olowa on August 15, 2007 6:20 PM
I'm being guided from the Parrot owner and researching this myself beyond that. For this, Ohio Dept of Liquor Control. If there was a offence on a licence, I figured it was there.
I think we have both expended ourselves on this, which is fine. The note, in my opinion, in both offences is that wolford was the ticketing officer.
Written by: kalin on August 16, 2007 2:05 AM
The complaint officer in the case of the after hour sales was as follows:
Ptlm. Super
That's the name on the ticket, again, according to court records. Wolford handled the other complaint. Now, if the bar owner cannot remember after hours sales, being ticketed, having to pay fines (again according to court records), and cannot accurately give the name of the ticketing officer in that offense then I'm calling into question the accuracy of his story.
I may not remember every single time I was pulled over for speeding in my youth but I do remember the ones where I got the ticket and had to pay. I find it hard to believe that since the offenses were few, the beloved bar owner could not remember paying the fines.
Written by: Olowa on August 16, 2007 9:22 AM
The sales after hours charge incurred a whopping $50.00 fine with $53.00 in court costs.
As for Kent State, shame on everyone of you who felt that killing and maiming was something to be proud of and to joke about and to keep score about. I have never condemned the National Guard for what happened there and I am sure that some of them carry emotional scars. It was a tragedy.
Written by: Guidepost on August 17, 2007 8:33 AM
Title: No Parrot Just Bull!!!
Message: I read the story on TMC, and found it totally subjective(AGAINST LPD/TURN TRASH). Sgt. Wolford is a honest hard working family man with good Christian values.
He's still on very good terms with his ex wife, and is just an all and all great guy.
He's a former Marine, with a take charge attitude. If, he had not been there leading the charge, the riot in the parrot would have escalated into total anarchy, and the whole city would have been overrun by a group of yuppies.
Sure, LPD has had a little bad press, but nothing like Kipton or other surrounding departments.
http://tmcnews.blogspot.com/2007/08/getting-their-story-out.html
Written by: lorena on August 10, 2007 7:56 PM
Message: That’s interesting lorena, all of the email that I have received is saying that it was objective and favored the Police. I believe that TMCNEWS.NET was the only one who printed what the subject in the band said to the Officers in the bar. Although I received emails against putting those words in the piece I felt it was important to tell everything that happened. Calls were placed to Chief Rivera and to Lt. James Rohner for a sit down interview. I hope to bring that to you early next week. Their statements will receive the same coverage as the people at the hearing. Sorry you believed that it was subjective against the LPD. I am not sure what the other part “turn trash” meant.
I appreciate your opinion and please feel free to voice them on TMC NEWS anytime or feel free to email me at tmcnews1@aol.com if you have any questions as well.
Written by: TMCNEWS on August 10, 2007 8:45 PM
Message: allow me to correct something there... objective OR favoring the Police...
Written by: TMCNEWS on August 10, 2007 8:49 PM
Message: So Lorena - where exactly do you stand? One day your all over LPD like they are bad the next day you defend one of the officers. Be consistent.
Written by: ragazzalorain on August 10, 2007 11:58 PM
Message: To be honest with you Ragzz, it depends on my moods. But, I like Wolford, worked with him, in the past, when he was a corrections officer, and on the road. To be honest, there are some on that department, that I could take or leave.
I also, think I have earned the right, to voice opinions about a city and place, where I put large amount of years working for.
I also, like "Wrong Way Marrero", but I think what you've seen about him, is the tip of the iceberg. I'm afraid, if his picture ever made out to the public, there would be more women coming forward. This has been an ongoing problem for years.
Also, I have a question? If this cop is engaging on sexual activities while on duty in District 4/South Lorain, how can he back up fellow officers, or be out there patrolling to create a proactive presence. Not only does the public suffer for his malfeasance, but other officers who may call for his assistance?
Also, "Turn Trash." is an affectionate term for officers who work afternoons or nights (Road Duty). This was our nickname, back in the early 1990's, and a Sgt. Cairns, actually sold black T-Shirts with a trash can on it saying LPD Turn Trash. Boy was Malinovsky peeved about those shirts. For fear of reprisal, I opted not to purchase one.
Written by: lorena on August 11, 2007 8:36 AM
Message: It is obvious that you have some personal connection to this man. Why else would you so staunchly defend someone whose actions obviously indicate that he was way out of line. Seems to me that if you look at the facts of exactly happened that night the SGT is the one who incited this so called "riot". Does being a former Marine and "family man" give him the right to unleash his cops on a bunch of innocent people. He fought as a Marine to protect our freedoms not to turn our country into a place where police and government can do what they please with no worries about being held accountable.
Written by: big al on August 13, 2007 4:37 PM
Message: i've just received a copy of the police report and i emplore you all to do the same.
it's well worth a laugh or two.
Written by: joshunderground on August 13, 2007 8:01 PM
Message: Josh, can't remember but were you there that night?
Written by: lifelesson on August 13, 2007 10:36 PM
Title: Tasers for all
Message: When will all employees who work with the public be issued tasers so that when they feel "threatened" they can whip it out and end the threat.
How about the bank teller who is being harrassed by a customer because his check was returned? The customer leans into the window...is he going to assault the teller? TASER HIM!
How about the store clerk who can't take back an item for return because of store policy. Why is the irate customer raching into her purse...a gun? TASER HER!
How about the teacher who has to keep telling a young student to stay in line while on a field trip? An authority figure giving an order that is not followed. The student's actions are putting others in danger. HMMM? TASER HIM OR HER!
I assumed that the taser would be the last thing to be used when they were issued to police officers just like a gun was but I see it is not.
Therefore, I recommend that tasers be issued to all parents so that they can EASILY subdue their children when they argue or talk back. This would teach them to submit without question to authority figures.
From the sounds of the posters on here a lot of you were at the Red Parrot that night because many of you sound like you know exactly what happened.
Written by: Guidepost on August 11, 2007 8:22 AM
Message: I'll tell you what!! The taser is one of the best tools that law enforcement has ever seen. I would take the taser any day, rather then using my hands.
Many cops have broken their hands punching people in the head. Many people have had their skulls crushed in, from cops using Kel lights or Mag lights. Many people had their heads split open, by cops using a sap or blackjack. People have died, from the lateral restraint (Choke hold) or died, because they were shot.
Cops and bystanders, have also been hurt, when mace or pepper spray was used, and it blew away, and hit cops, suspects, and everyone around them.
People have died, because cops were forced to use their handgun to stop a threat from an armed suspect with a knife, club or other makeshift weapons.
Only a minimal amount of people have died from the use of tasers, compared to guns, clubs, flashlights, and fists!!!
Written by: lorena on August 11, 2007 8:49 AM
Message: If any ordinary citizen had used any of these techniques against their family members, young or old, they would be in court for child or elder abuse...even if they felt they had a very good reason.
Tasers should have strict guidelines for their use. They may have but not from what I am hearing on here. I searched the web and found stories of 6 and 9 year and 12 year olds being tasered. A nine year old girl at a special needs school was handcuffed when tasered. If it happened elsewhere, it could happen here.
Before firing their weapons, the police have to really think about it. Just because there is no explosion of sound or a bullet penetrating the skin, does not mean that a police officer should not have to carefully consider using the taser.
After all, they are professionals and should have received extensive training in psychology and how to diffuse a situation and to restrain someone. With the taser it seems to be more and more a case of shoot first, ask questions later.
Written by: Guidepost on August 11, 2007 1:15 PM
Message: Perhaps if the belt or the wooden spoon had been used earlier on in life, the taser wouldn't be necessary now.
Instead, all we got is "I know my Johnny wouldn't do that....he's such a good kid" (with a criminal record but it's someone else's fault). There are more "friends" than "parents" these days.
Written by: Olowa on August 11, 2007 1:20 PM
Message: If the name had not been Red Parrot but let's say...Spitzer's Marina..would the police have gone in and wandered around looking for underage drinkers?
How many of you know of graduation parties where there were underage drinkers? I can bet the police knew of at least one and I can guarantee that nobody went there and wandered around to check.
They went to pick up one troublemaker outside the Red Parrot and ended up with 8 more who were supposedly causing no trouble inside the bar until the police decided to check things out. As someone on here said, "If you look for trouble, you can usually find it."
Written by: Guidepost on August 11, 2007 1:35 PM
Message: TMCNEWS,
Thank you for posting the account of the Red Parrot story and for all of the coverage of local events, especially Public Safety Incidents. Your dedication to your site is amazing.
I thought your blog letting the "adults" tell their side of the story was "fair and balanced" If anything the "adults" own words helped to show the public that their own actions led to the Police handling the situation the way they did.
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 11, 2007 1:42 PM
Message: Thanks guidepost. Underage or overage a drunk driver is a problem. If you really want to get a message across LPD then sit outside the better bars and clubs where some of Lorain's elite get sloshed on a regular basis especially at a fundraiser. This has been a pet peeve for a long time. These people have parties on a regular basis with alcohol served and then send partiers out on the street. Use the paddle not on kids but to break the bottle before it goes into the gut and fogs the mind. Problems now? Wait till those for casinos get one in Lorain.
Written by: fairisfair on August 11, 2007 1:52 PM
Message: I strongly suspect that if the Police had been called to a grad party for a out of control drunk, they would further investigate. If they found there was underage drinking, arrests would be made.
If those being arrested resisted, I am sure they would be tasered.
The way I read the "adults" account of that night at TMCNEWS,they said that;
1}They did not follow officers directions to stop playing music
2} They used obscene language and hand signs towards the officers
3} They touched an officer during an arrest
4} They failed to disperse
Who amoung us wouldn't expect to be arrested in a similar situation? Why do these "adults" think they should be treated any differently than the "poor and uneducated"?
And to LPD, if I am acting a fool while at a bar and for some reason don't listen to you, grab you and curse at you, PLEASE taser me instead of beating me with a night stick or shooting me. I will thank you for it later. I will not blame you or go to the media because of the pain that my own actions caused me
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 11, 2007 1:58 PM
Message: ...just what I've observed on here and in the print media: no one who was there could justify what the police did, not one person who was there has come forward and said the police handled everything properly, and all those who believed "justice was served" were not there and have no clue to what really happened, just basing their opinion on rumors.
I believe we should not judge the people who were there on rumors and inuendos. These were just young adults having fun when one intoxicated person went over the edge. Please don't label the defendants any more than what you have. We were all young at one time, and we'll all probably agree that our early years of adulthood were "the best". Give them the oppurtunity to let the courts decide this. We've given them a forum here, and at WoM http://thewomblog.com/?p=685 Let's let this play out with a judge and jury. No more bashing those involved(either side).
Written by: muley on August 11, 2007 2:19 PM
Message: Everything you said is true Muley.
Just as the police are accused of profiling that has been done by some posters on here.
I only posted on here because I refuse to believe that police are gods. They are doing a job they chose to do. Some do it better than others. I have experienced first hand how a law officer can create an atmosphere of distrust by his demeanor, voice and, yes, cockiness.
We were a small group of unsuspecting law-abiding people talking and minding our business in a parking lot when a police officer THOUGHT we were a problem. His initial contact with us left the hair bristled on each of our backs. The walls went up. For all we knew he had stolen the police uniform and car. He never apologized before he left. We were not what he was looking for.
Yes, the police have a hard job. But like I said...they chose it. Along with their position of public trust comes certain responsibilities and we all have the right to question their handling of certain matters. How else do you keep ANYONE honest?
I guess until each of us is interrupted during an evening of drinking and/or fun and confronted by police officers who then taser and handcuff some of us, we will never know how the story really goes and how maybe EVERYBODY can be just a little out of control.
Written by: Guidepost on August 11, 2007 3:01 PM
Title: Great Surmation Of Citizen On Red Parrot TMC
Message: This guy on TMC, hit the nail on the head. Those parents should have asked for a refund for those kids college educations. They were cheated!!!
Michael said...
Joe Fish was playing in the band at the Red Parrot the night of the incident; he was arrested after flipping off a Police Officer and telling him to “eat a dick”. Fish said the reason he did this was because he was pissed off. “I was pissed off cause one of my friends was in the back of a Police car and they arrested one of my friends, which he was let go actually but I was pissed off.”
If he was on stage playing in a band, how would he know what was going on outside and weren’t the arrests made after the gesture and eat a dick comment? That is what all these kids are saying. Maybe this Joe Fish guy should get his made up story straight.
Not surprising it was his brain child brother who went up on stage trying to question the police officer and putting his hand on his shoulder. WHY on earth would you do something like that? Especially if what you say is true that these guys STORMED the bar and stage beating people, why would you put your hands on them or even try to question them?
I am also tired of reading accounts that these are good college kids or post college kids. If they are in fact graduates of some college their parents need to get the tuition back from their schools.
I can’t wait to see what jason says about this one.
Michael from North Ridgeville
Written by: lorena on August 12, 2007 9:25 AM
Dead Ringer - Live - Riot At The Red Parrot
If anyone is interested, by tomorrow afternoon I will have audio recordings and video posted on http://www.myspace.com/deadringeroh as well as youtube. Feel free to add us as friends!!
On another note, maybe seeing and hearing what took place that night will change some of your minds about the situation. I had a front row seat the night this happened, On stage with two of the people who were arrested. It was surreal... many of those people were arrested for simply questioning what was going on. We are taxpayers, parents, and home-owners in Lorain County!
Written by: deadringerbrian on August 13, 2007 6:28 PM
use-of-force policies for police officers
I have opened this thread for the purpose of looking at the policies and usage of "tasers" both locally and nationally. I do not know what the "use-of-force" policy is in Lorain. I am curious to find out and at which point in the level of escalation they are deployed.
I am not trying to smear the LDP in any way. I personally think that they are over-used nationwide because they are considered "non-lethal."
The use of stun technology in law enforcement raises a number of concerns for the protection of human rights. Portable and easy to use, with the capacity to inflict severe pain at the push of a button without leaving substantial marks, electro-shock weapons are particularly open to abuse by unscrupulous officials.
I look at this as a chance to have some public oversight since police officers are service us as the public. Here are a few facts to think about:
GAO (general accounting office) lists the Orange County Sheriff’s
Department and the Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department—reported post-Taser use deaths. From 2001 to 2004, Orange County reported that, of the 1,655 individuals on which Tasers were used, four later died.
1 in 413 died. If all 9 arrested at the Red Parrot (or any 9 people) were tasered, there is a 1 in 46 chance of one of them dying (2%).
ATF—the federal agency responsible for determining whether a weapon should be classified as a firearm, which would make the weapon subject to federal firearms regulations—does not classify the Taser as a firearm.
Thus, the Taser is not subject to any federal regulations regarding the distribution, sale, and possession of firearms. As a result, Tasers can be manufactured and distributed domestically without federal restriction.
Tasers are not classified as a firearm because they do not
expel projectiles by means of an explosive. Instead of gunpowder, they use a combination of a battery and nitrogen cartridges to fire the barbs.
Army regulations prohibit the sale,
possession, carrying, or transportation of Tasers on or within specific installations.
Common thresholds at which Taser use may be deemed appropriate at three different levels on use-of-force continuums.
This model is adapted from a United States government publication on use of force.
1-Verbal command
2-Handcuff suspect
3-Search suspect
4-Use wrist/arm lock
5-Use takedown
6-Block/punch/kick
7-Strike suspect
8-Wrestle suspect
9-Pepper spray
10-Use baton
11-Use firearm
I do acknowledge the importance of developing non-lethal or "less than lethal" force options to decrease the risk of death or injury inherent in the use of firearms.
I would love to read you opinions on the subject.
Written by: kalin on August 14, 2007 3:47 AM
If you had to deal with the kind of crap that police officers go through on a daily basis- especially in a city like Lorain, you would understand. Have you ever been in a physical altercation? Do you have any idea how fast the situation can change. While you wrestle with one suspect, you have to worry about your surroundings. There are split second decisions that need to be made to control the situation. I applaud officers for using any means to control the situation.
Let's say that you were being attacked by an assailant, would you want an officer to verbally subdue the attacker, or get him off of yu as quick as possible?
Be glad that you do not have to make the decisions that officers have to make. We wouldn't even entertain these situations if it weren't for a society who has no respect for law, or other people's property. No pity on criminals. At All.
Written by: 503mike on August 14, 2007 9:25 AM
But mike, take it from someone who had a front row seat from the stage. There was no physical altercation to begin with.
Written by: deadringerbrian on August 14, 2007 9:38 PM
MSNBC & Associated Press Reports Aug 14, 2007
HOUSTON - In a confrontation captured on videotape, a hospital security guard fired a stun gun to stop a defiant father from taking home his newborn, sending both man and child crashing to the floor.
Now the man says the baby girl suffers from head trauma because she was dropped.
Full Story:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20266747/
Written by: kalin on August 15, 2007 1:14 AM
I just saw the video this morning. What amazed me was how fast the officer whipped out the taser and fired it. Not a gun therefore not a thought for the child. He hadn't hurt anybody but was upset at teh hospital. Because there was domestic violence in the home before, child services took the child and that is how they are justifying the use of taser...a previous problem (but they didn't know that at the time) and the man was "big". Those officers seemed to be the same size as him.
Does anyone know if a taser can affect a pacemaker or any electrical device that someone may be wearing for health reasons?
Written by: Guidepost on August 15, 2007 8:08 AM
I applaud officers for using
any means to control the
situation.
I see, so then I assume that every year on May 4th you celebrate the deaths of four students at Kent State in 1970, after all law enforcement was only using "any means to control the situation".
By the way, I'm wondering what the "situation" was you are talking about? People peacefully enjoying a concert? Perhaps the police should also beat and taser parishioners at a Baptist Revival tent when they start praying and singing too loud, and making dancing movements which "could be interpreted as threatening" in a split-second decision.
"Any means possible" implies a police state under martial law. Do you actually understand what you are saying? Martial Law means "we the government do hereby suspend the Constitution of the United States and establish military/police rule at gunpoint.
Written by: Bucyruss on August 16, 2007 7:51 AM
Actually, I remember celebrating kent State, with a annotation in the old booking room chalkboard that said "National Guard Score = 4" Kent State = 0". Boy do I miss the good old days at LPD.
Written by: lorena on August 16, 2007 11:38 AM
Lorena,
Your post is out of line!
You and others like you at the police department are a disgrace!
Written by: debewebe on August 16, 2007 12:37 PM
That's funny, Debewebe calling someones post out of line. Two peas in a pod
Written by: BLACK CLOUD on August 16, 2007 12:41 PM
At least it was an original debewebe and not a cut and paste
Written by: LCB on August 16, 2007 12:54 PM
What a shame...jokes and smart remarks about people who have died...How selfish!
Written by: King88 on August 16, 2007 1:27 PM
And you are proud of celebrating the Kent shootings? Those weren't drunk or rowdy "adults" in a bar, rather college kids AT school protesting in a volatile political climate. You are a very sad person.
Written by: ragazzalorain on August 16, 2007 2:10 PM
Let's get a few things straight about those "peace" protests, they were hardly peaceful from the standpoint of the peace protesters.
Kent State had a pretty populated SDS group (communist front group) and Black United protesting against police recruiting on campus. They were demanding the removal of law enforcement programs along with the ROTC and other organizations and classes.
When Nixon anounced the counter attack those "peaceful protesters" caused disaster in that city setting fires, breaking windows, destroying cars, disrputing public gatherings. Police and even the fireman had rocks thrown at them. This was a "very peaceful" demonstration, eh? That behaviour was by "rowdy adults"?
This conitnued from May 1 to the dreaded May 4. No one talks about how many injured guardsmen there were in restraint prior to the May 4 incident, do they? Nobody talks about how much insult they recieved? Nobody talks about the "Kill, Kill, Kill" peaceful protest chants prior to the deaths either do they?
Those four deaths were inevitiable and avoidable at the same time. Had the protests not gotten out of control and violent by the protesters themselves. Some people on here need to get a real sense of history and perspective. Whether you agree with the shooting or not it is very well possible they averted even more disastrous consequences later. These weren't "innocents".
Ironically, it is upon this generation that the rather large seed of civil disobedience has grown out of control. The Red Parrot incident has many model previous to it stemming back to the events in the 60s from which to draw inspiration. Also a bit humorous is how the story never changes.....
Written by: Olowa on August 16, 2007 3:06 PM
Please tell me you do not hold any position of responsibility anywhere.
Written by: senior on August 16, 2007 7:16 PM
How can you expect any of us to every respect the police after:
Celebrating Kent State, with a annotation in the old booking room chalkboard that said "National Guard Score = 4" Kent State = 0". Boy do I miss the good old days at LPD.
Sure sounds like a celebration of a police state. Appauling!!!
Written by: kalin on August 16, 2007 9:35 PM
Senior,
The City of Lorain has been dominated over many decades by the same political party. The people in positions of responsibility: council, mayors, commissioners, judges, etc.
Lorain in that same time period has seen an increase in.....people leaving, jobs leaving, taxes, unemployment, crime, drugs, foreclosures, etc. Sounds to me like the same people keep voting for the same thing from the same positions of responsibility and then whine and expect a different result.
Your tax dollars don't pay for my food, my shelter, my vehicle, or my health care. For decades though politicians have been asking more money in Lorain and it has created more fiscal irresponsibility and become financially challenged....
Responsibility?
Written by: Olowa on August 17, 2007 12:05 AM
No Parrot Just More Bull
Sgt. Wolford carried himself in a respectful manner. At no time did he and officers violate departmental policies.
http://cgb.obworld.com/index.cfm?d=news&p=read&newsid=3125
Written by: lorena on August 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Frivolous Lawsuit Against Cops
Man sues city after chase, crash
Morning Journal Staff
08/16/2007
email this storyEmail to a friendpost a commentPost a Commentprinter friendlyPrinter-friendly
ELYRIA -- A Lorain man is suing the city because he claims he was chased by a police officer in an unmarked car and ended up in a violent crash at the intersection of West 22nd Street and Reid Avenue.
Brian A. See, 2150 Elyria Ave., Apt. 3, is suing Lorain in Lorain County Common Pleas Court and asking for a judgment of more than $25,000 for the August 2005 accident, according to the lawsuit.
The lawsuit contends a police officer was chasing See in an unmarked car at a high speed without lights and sirens.
See had no way to discern who was chasing him, the suit says, so he fled the car and crashed at West 22nd Street and Reid Avenue. The suit says See sustained severe injuries in the crash.
Lorain Law Director Mark Provenza said yesterday he had not seen the suit yet and could not comment. The suit does not identify the police officer.
©The Morning Journal 2007
Submit your comment now
Written by: lorena on August 16, 2007 7:16 AM
He's been to court at least 26 different times, this joker. Trafficking in cocaine, poss of drug papraphenilia, domestic violence, burglary, and a ton of traffic violations (including driving under suspension). Does someone here want to explain how in the he?? he's not in jail right now.....or dead?
This is the problem that Lorain has, it keeps letting jokers like this fool go. Hello judicial system....you're flawed!!! Then the prized media outlet The Morning Journal fails to do it's due diligence and give a little background on this See character. Yet I notice that the real author of the story, Steven Szucs did give some background on See in the Chronicle Telegram. Conveniently edited out, eh?
Hello Jennifer Bracken, awarding winning BGSU journalist Alan Ingram, Ron Vidika and staff at the Morning Journal; how about taking an objective view of the story? How about not giving us any crud about having to cut copy to make space for ads and deliberately cutting pieces of information that would give your readers an alternative view of your one sided story against the LPD?
Brian See will be on the loose until he kills someone or himself. The LPD has done their job many times over but it appears that our court system is rather incompetent. The people of Lorain should be outraged that their tax dollars are paying officers to make so many arrests on this joker and then taking up valuable court time that could be used for other productive things.
It don't matter how many houses you make pretty in this city, until problems like this are solved not many people are going to want to come here. It isn't your buildings Lorain, it's your people and what your attracting.
Correcting myself as I see my punctionation is a bit misleading on the previous post; Bracken is the award winning BGSU journalist.
Written by: Olowa on August 16, 2007 11:34 AM
MY house is the house he burgled! There was a gun specification included in the charges. He fought back when the police tried to arrest him. He spent 1 1/2 years in prison during this time. Yep, he's a poster boy for the rehabilitative efforts of our justice system. This is obscene!
Written by: Hope Springs Eternal on August 16, 2007 9:26 PM
I agree that the judicial system has messed up here.
However, I (with no criminal record) would have been scared as sh*t and tried to flee from a car chasing me.
Written by: kalin on August 16, 2007 9:28 PM
Olowa..you just rewrote history!
Amazing!
I am curious, how old are you?
I would hate for you to serve the public in any capacity especially law enforcement or being a memeber of a jury!
Written by: debewebe on August 16, 2007 5:32 PM
Sure you would fear me....
I believe in turning the prison system away from a vacation resort into a true deterrent and you just might consider it cruel and unusual punishment as well. Elminate the free education, the books, the gym and weightlifting, the TVs, half the meals, and ten times the discipline.
You may not like my stance but at least you know where I stand. If I rewrote history, Ms? (maybe), I would encourage you to tell me where and state your references. Just coming out and telling me I rewrote history and not backing it up proves nothing.
I can back up the presence of the SDS (and it's communist ties) and Black United. I can also back up the disturbances on May 1 (bonfire, breaking windows), the burning of the ROTC building on May 2, the violence against the guardsmen, fire, and police, the command to disperse prior to the gathering on May 4 when the shootings happened.
As with Kalin and the Red Parrot incident, I watched him mention libel and defamation in reference to my accurate claims of the bar owner's record and then refuted them with proof. It's easy to throw your claims out there, back them up.
Written by: Olowa on August 16, 2007 11:34 PM
----------------------------------
SINCE AUG 16, 2007
-----------------------------------
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police - Lorena
Message: Senior,
The City of Lorain has been dominated over many decades by the same political party. The people in positions of responsibility: council, mayors, commissioners, judges, etc.
Lorain in that same time period has seen an increase in.....people leaving, jobs leaving, taxes, unemployment, crime, drugs, foreclosures, etc. Sounds to me like the same people keep voting for the same thing from the same positions of responsibility and then whine and expect a different result.
Your tax dollars don't pay for my food, my shelter, my vehicle, or my health care. For decades though politicians have been asking more money in Lorain and it has created more fiscal irresponsibility and become financially challenged....
Responsibility?
Written by: Olowa on August 17, 2007 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience At Red Parrot
Message: The sales after hours charge incurred a whopping $50.00 fine with $53.00 in court costs.
As for Kent State, shame on everyone of you who felt that killing and maiming was something to be proud of and to joke about and to keep score about. I have never condemned the National Guard for what happened there and I am sure that some of them carry emotional scars. It was a tragedy.
Written by: Guidepost on August 17, 2007 8:33 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: How can you compare the Kent State "killings" and the incident at the Red Parrot. Even if what you are saying was true and the events happened just as you claim, that has no realtionship to what happened at the Red Parrot. The difference is pretty simple..no one at the Red Parrot was protesting anything that night. They were there for a concert not as a political statement. The actions of the police officers and the subsequent false reports filed is what has turned this into a "riot." Ironic, how you try to tie these two incidents together when the only thing that is similar is the over use of force by the people in authority. The political statment in this case is coming after the abuse by the police officers not before. The individuals that were abused by police at the Red Parrot are making the statment that it is not ok by standing up and speaking out. Again, several of the accused have already refused offers to have all charges dropped by signing an agreement to not hold the City of Lorain liable for actions of its police officers. Funny how all of you on here that are taking the officers side have avoided addressing that aspect of this case. I would like to hear how you somehow find a way to skew that in the cops favor.
Written by: big al on August 17, 2007 7:21 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: Big Al,
Firstly, please note that the origination of the Kent State comments came from Kalin previously in this topic (someone who is siding against the cops, btw). Neither Lorena or myself brought it up but simply responded to what he mentioned.
You are correct, the two events really should not have been compared. I referred to the Red Parrot topic (if it was read properly) only to substantiate my references on a previous arguement. If someone is going to call me inaccurate, then do not just say it. Again.......back it up and show me where I am wrong.
Let's approach the offer to drop the case by police since you're excited about it. It's pretty simple if it's true. You have an overly litigous society who responds to the word "indited" as guilty. Anyone can create a lawsuit these days. You've got a man suing McDonalds because they put cheese on his quarter pounder for Christ's sake. Lawsuits don't mean squat anymore. You have an ambulance (excuse me; police chaser) with a criminal record as their attorney.
I refer back to the civil lawsuit against Wolford years ago. It was a PR scheme that you heard all about in the newspapers and when he was found "not guilty", you didn't hear squat about it. Media loves bad news, horrible news, people died here, this person was killed there, murder here, this person raped there. Corruption. You can't deny that, you see it every day all around you.
Mr. Al, if parents used more force it might go without saying that police would most likely have to use less.
And now I will refer back to the Kent State era. That generation planted the seeds of civil disobedience that are sprouting everywhere. The Red Parrot is one microcosm of a bigger picture. The authorities are not your big problem, in this city it's your citizens.....or should I say lack of them. This won't get better by covering your eyes.
Have a most excellent evening dear sir. :D
Written by: Olowa on August 17, 2007 8:40 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police-Olowa
Message: You have no idea what you are talking about, Olowa.
I hope you never become a parent nor a public servant.
Your belief system is wacked out of shape.
Written by: debewebe on August 17, 2007 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Civil Disobedience At Red Parrot
Message: I just re-read my post from this morning and found that part of it is missing. I do not know what I did, but here is the beginning that somehow got lost.
I went to lorainmunicourt.org an searched using the name Mitchell Karczewski (correct spelling) and found that the disturbing the peace charge was dismissed on motion of prosecutor w/o costs.
Written by: Guidepost on August 17, 2007 10:54 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: For the love of God. Facts? If you want facts, go back and see that I never started the Kent State discussion. Don't try to smear me with that.
And just to make this clear:
1) Arresting someone for taking photos, and then erasing them is un-constitutional !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) Tasering someone in custody, in the back of a cruiser is un-constitutional !!!!!!!!!!!
Other than that, I'm not taking any sides. Those are my two big issues. My only issues. As for the rest of the affairs at the Red Parrot, I do not know, therefore I do not speak of them.
How this Red Parrot issue had made it into this discussion thread is interesting. If you read the original post, I clearly stated that this was about the use of force levels by police forces nationwide.
I have responded to other threads to clear up inconsistancies as I know them. Innocent untill proven guilty. Wolford, the LPD, the Red Parrot Owner, those adults charged that night, all have the judicial system to clear their name.
I understand that the police have a very difficult job, but the are also subject to community oversight. They are our public servants. I trust in them, and want to continue to do so.
Written by: kalin on August 18, 2007 2:49 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: Hello Kalin,
Let me remind you again that you were the first to post Kent State in the thread. On August 16 you wrote:
"How can you expect any of us to every respect the police after:
Celebrating Kent State, with a annotation in the old booking room chalkboard that said "National Guard Score = 4" Kent State = 0". Boy do I miss the good old days at LPD.
Sure sounds like a celebration of a police state. Appauling!!!"
You can't remember what you said a few days ago even when it is posted for the world to see. I think that about says it for your credibility.
Written by: Olowa on August 18, 2007 9:50 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: In my opinion, if Olowa is not in a position of responsibilty, he or she should be!! I have never read better insight then his. He showed intelligence, insight, and a true battle plan. The Lorain Police Dept, would surely benefit from someone like this, especially as a Captain, or Sergeant.
Further, I think Sgt. Wolford should be commended for his actions at the Red Parrot. He saw that trouble was brewing, and took it upon himself to prevent further problems, by making mass arrests.
The incident at the Parrot, should be used as a learning tool for new police officers and seasoned officers on how to quell a disturbance.
The Ohio Police Officer's Training Council, should tap into Wolford's expertise, knowledge, and vast years of experience to establish curriclum and training for all police in Ohio.
I also think someone like Olowa, would do a great job as well, molding young police officers into our future civil servants. Ohio would definitely win!!
Written by: lorena on August 18, 2007 9:54 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police-Olowa
Message: Deb,
Are you ever going to provide any substance here? I've asked two times now for you to correct me and all you can do is call me names? I'm going to ask you again now for the third time, back it up. If I am soooo wrong, back it up and show me.
You can throw these little off topic personal attacks at me all day, means nothing and shows your true colors. I'm happy to exploit it. Do something for your credibility here and back it up. Show me I'm wrong.
Thank you again and have a most excellent day!
Written by: Olowa on August 18, 2007 10:04 AM
Title: Apology To Kalin
Message: I stand corrected. These threads jump when someone adds a name on to the topic post. There should be a better way of doing that....anyway, Kalin was not the first to use Kent State in the thread. My apologies.
Written by: Olowa on August 18, 2007 10:11 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police /big al
Message: I would like to know, too, if that is the case. I read on here earlier about signing something and having charges dropped. Why would the police do it if they were truly in the right?
Written by: Guidepost on August 18, 2007 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Apology To Kalin
Message: Thank you. It is very kind of you to correct that.
Written by: kalin on August 18, 2007 3:58 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: Actually Olowa, I first brought "Kent State" into this, rather innocently enought (at least I thought so at the time).
I was responding to this post:
http://www.loraincounty.com/lorain/discussion.shtml?id=217369&f=11&v=
By making this post:
http://www.loraincounty.com/lorain/discussion.shtml?id=217678&f=11&v=
To which another forum member made the comments about the score on the chalkboard at LPD. By the way, that particular post has been subsequently deleted from this forum.
Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused.
Written by: Bucyruss on August 20, 2007 1:07 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: The removal of that post came a little too late. I still shudder at the thought of human beings in charge being that callous at the loss of life. Something to remember.
Written by: Guidepost on August 20, 2007 6:19 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police -Lorena-Olowa
Message: Don't worry, I have a screen capture of it. I figured it would dissapear. I don't want to re-hash the whole thing other than to answer the question of who made the chalkboard comment.
"-Written by: lorena on August 16, 2007 11:38 AM-"
Written by: kalin on August 20, 2007 6:42 PM
Title: use-of-force policies for police
Message: After we taser you, you don't sue us and we will drop the charges:
"In November, Fretter was stunned with a Taser while in handcuffs in the Sheffield Police Department booking room after being picked up for drunken driving. The officer who fired the Taser, Edward Long, resigned, and charges were dropped against Fretter in exchange for her promise to not sue the village."
http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/08/09/mom-barred-from-seeing-daughter-6/
And another incident indicating that there is something wrong with tasering people in custody:
"A Lorain police officer who was returned to the force after being fired for Tasering a prisoner in custody resigned Thursday."
http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/07/13/officer-quits-3-months-after-taser-reprieve/
Written by: kalin on August 22, 2007 2:36 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police
Message: All the kids at the Red Parrot, should take responsibility as adults, plead out, to a lesser charge of disorderly conduct, do a little jail time, and get on with life.
Written by: lorena on August 22, 2007 8:41 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police
Message: Why should they plead out to a lesser charge and do time?
If they were offered charges dropped for them to drop their suit against the city?
Written by: independent_resident on August 22, 2007 10:30 PM
Title: Total Lies At Red Parrot
Message: This is the most vile, disgusting, subjective article I have read about LPD. Totally slanted towards the owner of Red Parrot:
http://www.badcopnews.com/2007/08/14/lorain-ohio-police-officer-sgt-james-wolford-led-attack-on-red-parrot-lounge-resulting-in-riot-and-taser-attacks/
Written by: lorena on August 23, 2007 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Total Lies At Red Parrot
Message: Unless it is true…
Written by: Mr. Facts on August 23, 2007 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Total Lies At Red Parrot
Message: This originally appeared in Scene Magazine on Aug 13. I don't think this sheds a good light on anyone or anything: Lorain, the Polish, The Police, those overage patrons, the lorain nightlife and culture, those under 21, etc.
Lorena, both of us have looked at this from different angles, but on this one I think we both were shaking our heads. It's so factually incorrect on about every fact, every issue. Scene has long been lacking any journalistic integrety and their "satire" is never positive for anyone writen about.
If this article was never writen, we would all be much happier.
Written by: kalin on August 24, 2007 12:53 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police-Lorena
Message: And the cops who used excessive force should be suspended without pay until an investigation by an independent third party is completed. Maybe going without a paycheck for a while will make them think twice before they taser people that are already hancuffed again.
Written by: big al on August 25, 2007 9:41 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police-Lorena
Message: i'm thinking the police should taser more criminals,and if that does not make them comply then they should just put a bullet in their head or bring by my house for i have extra ammo that i am too willing to unload...why is there so much sympathy for the criminals? that is what's wrong with this country,way too many bleeding heart liberals!!!!have a great buckeye day!!!!
Written by: demsquasher on August 26, 2007 9:12 AM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police-Lorena
Message: The other day I was driving down the street and an LPD unit went past me. He didn't turn around and pursue me or try to pull me over. I went on my way and he went on his way hopfully he went home safe that day. My point? Don't commit a crime and they won't have to use any kind of force. I agree with demsquasher. They should be able to use any force the have to in order to keep crime at hand. Don't like it, don't do the crime or at least do what they tell you and they won't have to use force.
Written by: rescue82 on August 26, 2007 10:12 AM
Title: Re: Extra Ammo to unload.
Message: Demsquasher,
Put a bullet in their head, or bring them by my house for I have extra ammo. that I am willing to unload. Very scary and angry words. A person is found innocent or guilty in the court of law, not by your extra ammo. that you are willing to unload. Let the police do their job.
This is an inappropriate statement, and I hope children are not reading this. Your anger shows.
Written by: Top Spinner on August 26, 2007 11:36 AM
Title: Re: Extra Ammo to unload.
Message: Just wait till all of you of like mind are in the wrong place at the wrong time and not in a city where you are known and a police officer decides you have done something wrong BUT you keep insisting you have not. GOOD LUCK!!!
"Extra Ammo" you scare the sh** out of me. And I should encourage friends and relatives to move here let alone visit me here? By your standards, one wrong move and you would shoot.
And exactly who is a criminal? If they are truly a criminal then they are in jail or prison and should not be out for you to shoot which means you are making judgements. A criminal is determined by a judge and jury. Breaking into your house...do what you want. Breaking into my house...call the police please.
God forbid you should have kids to share your views with. Violence does breed violence. Any neighborhood that was taken back from "criminals" was not done with guns. It was done with constant vigilance and getting the message out OVER and OVER AND OVER and calling the police and getting it sometimes on tape and EVERYBODY involved not just 1 or 2. It was not done by one person hiding in the shadows ready to open fire like a criminal.
Written by: Guidepost on August 26, 2007 1:19 PM
Title: Re: Extra Ammo to unload./topspinner
Message: I agree...that statement was EXTREMELY inappropriate. Sometimes it is scary for me as well to read some of these comments. I hope that he/she does not have children.
Written by: westsideresident on August 26, 2007 1:44 PM
Title: Re: Extra Ammo to unload./topspinner
Message: For sure it's a HE. Bad attitude all of the time. Got kicked off her many times in the past when he went under a different name for the site. I believe he would actually use his weapon instead of calling the police. HOw about it Mike?
Written by: # 1 Fan on August 26, 2007 2:20 PM
Title: Re: use-of-force policies for police-Lorena
Message: Have no love for no criminal and believe an eye for an eye, but it isn't up to me to make judgement or yourself Mike. That is why we have a court system in place.
Its embarrassing to think you were a Marine with the ignorant ways you rant. I am willing to bet you with all the trash talking you do these days,that you were a kid who always got his tail whopped growing up.
Written by: Semper Fi on August 26, 2007 4:16 PM
Title: Re: Extra Ammo to unload.
Message: i used to have problems in my neighborhood when i first moved here. now i carry my sidearm at my side when i walk around. no one bothers me. it's a deterent. if someone tries to rob me again, i might have to use it to put a hole in their leg. However, I'm not wandering around trying to be a vigalante. If someone breaks into my home, a 911 call won't protect my family at that time. I think more people should responsebly show their weapons to clean up the neighborhoods.
Written by: kalin on August 26, 2007 5:45 PM
Title: Re: Extra Ammo to unload./Guidepost
Message: Your statement sounds biased from the beginning, as if to assume that police officers just “decide” you’ve done something wrong. They too are subject to the law, should they be in the wrong, that would be determined in a court of law.
I wouldn’t encourage friends or relatives to move here either and it’s not because of the”Extra Ammo” comment, I personally took that comment not as a literal translation but rather as a tongue in cheek response to the frustration of the problems in our city, namely the highest crime in the county, with officers who are about the lowest paid, under manned, with no jail, and the mentality of some who want them to be pansy pacifiers rather than enforcers of the law.
You ask ‘who is a criminal?’ The one who is perpetrating violence by breaking in my house threatening my life, the life of my family and theft/destruction of my property, to which I have every right to defend. Defending and protecting your family and your property is not equivalent to violence. I’ll be happy to call the police if your house is getting broken into and I’ll pray that your alive when the police arrive.
Written by: Sammy on August 26, 2007 9:06 PM
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The Mysterious Case of the Red Parrot Lounge Riot
Mon Aug 13, 2007 at 12:48:23 PM
The Red Parrot Lounge is like most bars in Lorain: dark, a bit salty, and full of loyal, thirsty Poles. It’s rough enough, too, that owner Mitch Karczewski keeps a set of handcuffs behind the bar.
But it’s one of the only places in town to catch live music, which makes the Parrot a haven for the underage – and not especially popular with Lorain’s finest.
Last month, Karczewski learned this firsthand. He’d thrown out a rough-acting drunk, who responded by chucking a barstool into the bar’s front window. Out came those trusty cuffs to control said drunk until police arrived.
Enter Sergeant James Wolford, who openly refers to the Parrot as a “nuisance.” When Wolford arrived, he had at least eight badges backing him up, which is way more than you’d expect a single drunk to require. One asked the door guy if he was checking IDs. Then, Karczewski says, Wolford ordered his cohorts to shut the place down. Officers quickly stormed the Parrot, not forgetting to juice up their Tasers.
Three bar patrons can tell you the Tasers worked just fine – one from the backseat of a cruiser, where two officers opened the back doors and Tasered him. In all, 11 people were arrested, though, strangely, not one was underage. (And in a nod to the city’s generally law-abiding Polish, only two had a last name ending in “ski.”)
Wolford and the officers say they entered the Parrot because the crowd started to riot when they came for the drunk; but Michael Camera, who represents five of the arrested, says the only pain served that day was police-issued. “That’s a hell of a calm riot,” he says.
Last Thursday, Camera packed a courtroom with witnesses; but the department wants more time to investigate the incident, so they left with a Loraincheck for next month.
But don’t expect a decision anytime soon. After all, the complaint list against Lorain’s Finest already stretches halfway to Vermilion, with new entries trickling in almost monthly. An officer was just suspended for investigating too many ladies with tingly britches. A woman and her neighbor have accused two more of tasering the woman’s boyfriend after he’d been handcuffed. Last year a twelve-year-old boy was tasered on a school bus. Wolford himself has been fired once already for using excessive force during an arrest. “It’s like the Wild West out here,” says Karczewski. – Jason Nedley
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cgb.obworld.com
Lorain Police Under Further Scrutiny For Bar Riot
Lorain, Ohio - Lorain cops and Sgt. James Wolford under further scrutiny for alleged misconduct and violations of departmental policy when he and cops responded to alleged riot at bar.
Lisa Roberson http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/08/09/riot-hearing-put-on-hold/
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Dead Ringer - Riot at the Red Parrot
deadringerbrian
Joined: 1 week ago
Videos: 1
Added this video: August 14, 2007
Dead Ringer show in Lorain 7/28/07. Cops responded to a broken window out front and then entered the club with the intention of closing it down. When the band did not stop playing when police asked, they became violent with the patrons and 3 men were tasered. False charges of aggravating rioting, resisting arrest, and disorderly conduct were placed on the arrested. Anyone who views this video and believes in standing up for our rights as citizens or questioning the actions of authority when needed, please call and make a complaint to the Lorain Police Department at 440-204-2100. Please make sure you let them know you viewed this video on youtube. You can also make complaints at http://www.policeabuse.org
At 1:05 in the video you can see Kevin Andrewski being punched and kicked by multiple cops on the stage.
Category: News & Politics
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EXTERNALOTITUS (2 days ago)
I hope that every cop in Lorain sees this. They should be completely embarassed by the way they handled this situation. For it to escalate from one person to an entire venue is ridiculous. See you guys this weekend at The Red Parrot!! Hopefully we'll see an apology video from LPD on here soon!
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