Ashdown  se ne sjeca nicega sto se dogadjalo prije cetiri godine, osim onoga sto tereti Tudjmana. Cak se sjeca gdje je bio koji "dot" ili "cross" ali se ne sjeca tko je sjedio pored njega.
 

Tako citira odgovore predsjednika Tudjmana stranim medijima na upite o "salveti" Paddyja Ashdowna.

Vec 19. kolovoza 1995. Franjo Tudjman je francuskoj televiziji FR-2 izjavio:

"Vidite, prije svega ja nisam izlozio u Londonu nikavu ideju, pa ni crtu podjele Bosne. Veoma je zanimljivo da se i za kraljevskim stolom mogu naci ljudi koji zlorabe razgovore o ozbiljnim temama, a u tom razgovoru ja sam samo podsjetio da je u okviru NATO-a 1993. godine iz Bruxellesa izasla jedna karta gdje je povucena crta podjele interesnih sfera izmedju Istocne Europe i Zapadne Europe, koja ide kroz sredinu Bosne, i da bi vjerojatno rjesenje podjele, u okviru bosanske unije, izmedju srpskog i federalnog dijela bosnjacko-hrvatskog, trebalo traziti u okviru te crte, a sve ostalo je onda jedna spekulacija kompromitiranja toga rjesenja."


Slicne izjave kojima demantira Ashdowna, Franjo Tudjman je ponovio u intervjuima za TV Turske u kolovozu 1995., za TV Izrael i za "Le Figaro" u rujnu iste godine, za "Corriere della Sera" u prosincu 1997. i "Politique internationale" u travnju 1996., kada je Franjo Tudjman kazao:

"Dokazano je da nikada nisam nacrtao kartu podjele Bosne. Toga dana sam sugovorniku, g. Ashdownu, prikazao samo osnovne geopoliticke podatke: liniju koja dijeli zapadnu katolicku od pravoslavnog i istocnog svijeta." Franjo Tudjman se tada pozvao na postojanje karte u strategijskom atlasu koji je izdao "Complexe" iz Bruxellesa i koji pokazuje upravo tu crtu razgranicenja.

. . .

Tudjman dokazuje, kako kaze, netocnost i grotesknost Ashdownovih tvrdnji i svjedocenja koji su svoju potvrdu dobili u presudi generalu Blaskicu i postali dokaz o "medjunarodnom oruzanom sukobu"? Ponajprije logickom analizom.

Oruzani sukob Muslimana i Bosnjaka, navodi Tudjman, zavrsio je potpisivanjem washingtonskog sporazuma 18. ozujka 1994., kojim su Hrvati i Bosnjaci formirali Federaciju koja je trebala uci u konfederaciju s Republikom Hrvatskom.

Paddy Ashdown je svjedocio o "karti", odnosno salveti koju mu je Franjo Tudjman nacrtao 6. svibnja 1995. godine, dakle 14 mjeseci nakon prestanka sukoba i dogovora o Federaciji.

"Salveta na kojoj je nacrtana karta krunski je dokaz na temelju kojega je donijeta presuda o "medjunarodnom oruzanom sukobu" koji je trajao 1993./94. Karta je na salveti "nacrtana" dvije godine od pocetka i 14 mjeseci nakon svrsetka sukoba", konstatira Miroslav Tudjman

 

To je njima krunsko svjedocenje i krunski dokaz!

Cijeli zapis je ovdje Transkript

Ispitivanje od strane optu?be:

7 MR. HARMON: On 6 May 1995, did you have a
8 conversation with Franjo Tudjman?
9 A. I did, Mr. Harmon. I was invited to attend
10 the VE day celebrations in the Guildhall in London on
11 6th May 1995. It was a very large gathering --
12 I suppose there were of the order of 300 or 400 people
13 there, including many Heads of State, and I was placed,
14 presumably by somebody in the Foreign Office, because
15 they thought I knew something about Yugoslavia, next
16 door to President Tudjman at that time and I had an
17 extensive conversation with him.
18 Q. Could you relate that conversation to the
19 judges, please?
20 A. Well, I made a diary note of it at the time
21 -- it was made that night. I keep a regular diary,
22 and, if I may, I would like to rely rather on that, but
23 I sat next door to Mr. Tudjman. It would be fair, I
24 think, to say that a good deal of wine was flowing at
25 the time, and President Tudjman consumed a certain
Page 7329
1 amount of that. I entered pretty swiftly into a
2 conversation with him, and I asked him fairly early in
3 the conversation how he believed ex Yugoslavia might
4 look in 10 years' time, and I drew for him, on the back
5 of the menu, which I have here, some brief lines,
6 asking him to fill in the rest of the map as to what he
7 believed it would look like.
8 As I recall, I drew the --
9 Q. Let me interrupt you right there. I will
10 show you a copy of the map that you are referring to.
11 With the assistance of the usher, if I could have
12 Prosecutor's exhibit 275A and 275B placed next to the
13 witness, Mr. Usher, if you could place, first,
14 Prosecutor's exhibit, the 75A, on the ELMO. (Handed).
15 JUDGE JORDA: Does the Defence have this,
16 Mr. Harmon?
17 MR. HARMON: I was going to explain this is a
18 copy of an original document. Mr. Ashdown has the
19 originals of both documents in front of him and, prior
20 to the commencement of these proceedings, counsel for
21 the Defence had the opportunity to inspect the original
22 documents.
23 I would request, Mr. President, that the
24 originals be kept by Mr. Ashdown and that these copies,
25 which Mr. Ashdown will authenticate as genuine and true
Page 7330
1 copies, be entered into the record. The originals will
2 be available for the Defence at any time for further
3 inspection. I can explain, Mr. President, that 275A,
4 and I will pre-empt the witness a little bit, is the
5 first diagram about which Mr. Ashdown will testify.
6 This is a menu card on which is drawn a map, to which
7 Mr. Ashdown contributed some of the lines and Mr. Tudjman
8 contributed others.
9 275B is a copy of 275A done by Mr. Ashdown and
10 subsequently annotated by him on the following day.
11 But, with that having been said, Mr. President,
12 I believe 275A is placed on the ELMO, and, please, in
13 continuing your narrative form of testimony,
14 Mr. Ashdown, about your conversation with President
15 Tudjman, could you, first of all, identify this
16 document, what it is, and what lines you particularly
17 drew on it?
18 A. Well, this document, Mr. Harmon, is of course
19 the menu card for the dinner that night, and the back
20 of it is the area which was, as you rightly say, drawn
21 in a combination between myself and President Tudjman.
22 I drew in this line here (indicates) which is the line
23 of the coastline, and I marked in Sarajevo here
24 (indicates), Belgrade there (indicates), Banja Luka
25 here (indicates) and I put a dot over here for -- I beg
Page 7331
1 your pardon, Zagreb over here and Belgrade over here --
2 Zagreb where the cross is and Belgrade with the dot.
3 I put those in and said: draw for me how you
4 see the future picture of ex-Yugoslavia. The rest of
5 the lines on the map, including the two arrows, are
6 those of President Tudjman's. He drew, first of all,
7 this as the shape of Bosnia, that is, the Bosnian part
8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He then drew this line here
9 (indicates) which was the current front-line running, as
10 it were, to the east of Banja Luka, and then he drew
11 this line here (indicates), which is the key
12 determining line.
13 He said this was the division, as he saw it
14 ending up -- incidentally, taking in Sarajevo to the
15 west, including Banja Luka in the area belonging to the
16 Serbs and indicating that Tuzla -- I asked him about
17 Tuzla -- and that Tuzla would be in Serb territory --
18 that would be the division as it would then appear.
19 I asked him then what was this side? He drew the arrow
20 and said that side is Serbia and this side with this
21 arrow drawn is Croatia.
22 I asked him what about the Muslim area and he
23 said, "There will be no Muslim area, except as a small
24 element of the Croat State."
25 I asked him, in particular, did he really
Page 7332
1 expect that the Serbs would give up Banja Luka and that
2 they would accept in exchange Tuzla, which is a
3 predominantly Muslim community. He said yes, that is
4 what he saw the outcome of the situation being.
5 He then went on to say that it was his
6 intention at or around the time that the UN mandate
7 ended, to recapture Knin and the Krajina area around
8 Knin. We had a discussion about this and I said: from
9 a military point of view -- and I think I can judge
10 these things reasonably well -- I believed that would
11 be an exceedingly difficult military operation. This
12 is very good defensive territory. We had a discussion
13 as to how difficult that operation would be. He told
14 me he believed he could do it in eight days at a loss
15 of no more than 1,000 on his side. I recall betting
16 him a bottle of Croat white wine to say it would
17 take him longer and cost him more.
18 We then went on to talk about his relations
19 with the other two leaders, that is, Mr. Izetbegovic on
20 the one hand and President Milosevic on the other. He
21 was very dismissive of President Izetbegovic, who he
22 regarded as "a fundamentalist and an Algerian" were his
23 words. I have it in my diary he used the word "wog" as
24 well but he found it much easier to do business with
25 President Milosevic. He said President Milosevic was,
Page 7333
1 in his words, one of us whereas President Izetbegovic
2 was not, and I recall him saying that the Muslims were,
3 after all, only Serbs and Croats who could not stand up
4 to the Turks during the days of the Ottoman empire.
5 I found this a truly extraordinary conversation.
6 Q. Could you turn to 275B and can you just place
7 that on the ELMO and tell the judges --
8 A. I returned home that night, dictated my diary
9 as I always do, and discussed this with my wife and
10 said what an extraordinary conversation I had had,
11 and,, in order to make sense of this map, the following
12 morning I had a photocopy made, and the rest of the
13 annotations on here are annotations of mine. In order
14 to make it clearer for me and my records, I have
15 actually marked in the names so: this is the Dalmatian
16 coastline, this is Zagreb, this is the spot where
17 Belgrade was marked. I have marked in Serbia -- all
18 the annotations, all the writing on the map is mine --
19 in order to make it clearer and easier for me to
20 understand I also marked the Xs around here which was
21 the line President Tudjman drew indicating the current
22 State of Bosnia. I thickened this S line, because that
23 was the key line. I only in fact thickened it to there
24 (indicates). That was a continuation of the line that
25 he drew here. I did not thicken it that far.

Ispitivanje od strane obrane:

Page 7334
1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ashdown. I have no
2 additional questions.
3 Mr. President, with the court's permission,
4 I would move into evidence, Prosecutor's exhibits 275A
5 and B.
6 MR. HAYMAN: No objection to 275A. I would
7 ask that 275B be held in reserve until I conclude my
8 cross-examination.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, Mr. Hayman. I do
10 not know quite why you want us to wait. Are your
11 questions going to determine the relevance? This is a
12 question of identification at this point. I do not
13 really know why this would not be entered into the
14 record as an exhibit. The witness not only recognised
15 it -- he is the source.
16 MR. HAYMAN: The question is, are there
17 portions of it that are inaccurate. For example, the
18 top of the document states "Lines drawn by FT". The
19 witness has testified certain of the lines on the
20 document were drawn by him. I think we need to clarify
21 exactly what it is. It may well be we have no
22 objection to the document, but I cannot state that
23 I have no objection yet until I have had a chance to
24 question the witness.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Let me consult with my
Page 7335
1 colleagues for a moment.
2 (Pause).
3 JUDGE JORDA: The judges agree that this
4 document should be tendered as an exhibit and you can
5 now contest it as you like. Please begin your
6 cross-examination.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Hayman
8 MR. HAYMAN: Good afternoon, Mr. Ashdown.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. Were you seated across from Dr Tudjman or
11 next to him?
12 A. Alongside him.
13 Q. Who else were seated adjacent to either one
14 of you, or rather both of you?
15 A. I recall that the Croat ambassador was
16 there or thereabouts, but I am afraid I cannot recall
17 his position precisely.
18 Q. Do you remember who was across the table from
19 you, or was it a very wide table?
20 A. It was not a very wide table as I recall. It
21 was a standard-wide dining table. This is four years
22 ago. I am reluctant as you will understand to extend
23 my memory further than my diary notes, but I cannot
24 recall who was opposite me -- if I recall, they were
25 other Croats, but I cannot be certain of that.

Page 7336
1 Q. Did anyone else besides yourself and
2 Dr Tudjman participate in this conversation you have
3 related?
4 A. Not this conversation, as I recall, but,
5 again, my memory, if you will forgive me beyond the
6 bits that are on my notes is -- it is four years ago --
7 a little hazy, but beyond what is in my notes, I do not
8 recall anybody else participating in this conversation.
9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how long this
10 exchange lasted -- the exchange you have related
11 involving the creation of the map; the drawing on the
12 menu is what I am referring to?
13 A. Mr. Hayman, that is really very difficult. It
14 was a long dinner, there were speeches. Clearly, we
15 talked about other matters as well. I mean, you know,
16 small talk, and I must have talked to the person on my
17 other side, but I would have said that this portion,
18 that is the interesting portion of the conversation
19 contained in the diary notes, would have been of the
20 order of 20 minutes, perhaps half an hour.
21 Q. And in what language did the two of you
22 converse?
23 A. English.
24 Q. Do you speak Serbo-Croat?
25 A. No.
Page 7337
1 Q. Did you ask Dr Tudjman to draw a map relating
2 to Bosnia, or relating to the Former Yugoslavia as a
3 whole?
4 A. I asked him to draw -- to tell me how he
5 believed the situation in the Former Yugoslavia,
6 particularly of course pertaining to -- since that was
7 the issue at the time, to the Bosnia and Herzegovina
8 area, but it was about the area of Former Yugoslavia in
9 this region.
10 Q. Could exhibit 275A be placed and illuminated
11 on the ELMO, please?
12 You indicated that you drew certain items on
13 this map --
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. -- to initiate the exchange, if you will; is
16 that right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, do you see within the upper left-hand
19 quadrant, if you will, of the circle, that you have
20 described as, to your belief, constituting Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina, do you see that there appears to be an X,
22 a small B and a box?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us first of all -- did you draw
25 any of those three markings?
Page 7338
1 A. I drew, as I said in my diary notes -- I put
2 a cross for Zagreb. I drew these lines, I drew the
3 coastline, I put a cross for Zagreb, a cross for Banja
4 Luka and a cross for Sarajevo and, if I recall, a dot
5 for Belgrade.
6 Q. Where is the dot?
7 A. The dot will be under the cross, that is here
8 (indicates) on the map -- I annotated the map the
9 following day.
10 Q. Is it on exhibit 275A, the dot?
11 A. Let me have a look. No, I do not see -- well
12 -- I suspect it is this point here, but I cannot be
13 certain (indicates).
14 Q. I am sorry, you are referring to the
15 original?
16 A. I am referring --
17 Q. If you could place the original on the ELMO,
18 then we can follow. Do you see on the original banquet
19 menu the dot, which you have related as indicating
20 Belgrade?
21 A. Mr. Hayman, of course we are not dealing here
22 with a precise piece of cartography, as you will
23 understand, but there is in the middle of the crease of
24 the menu at the point of the arrow a dot, and I think
25 if you look at this, you will be able to see it. It is
 

Page 7339
1 just about there at the point of the arrow (indicates)
2 I suspect -- I would have placed my pen there and said:
3 let us assume Belgrade is there.
4 Q. Can you place -- I do not know if the ELMO
5 will hold both these documents, but could you put
6 exhibit 275B next to the original menu map so hopefully
7 we can see as much as possible -- that is fine -- thank
8 you to the technical booth. Can you indicate on 275B
9 where Belgrade is marked?
10 A. It is marked there (indicates).
11 Q. Would you agree that is a bit of a distance
12 from the crease on the original banquet menu?
13 A. Yes, Mr. Hayman, I would be happy to agree
14 that. Remember, that I was drawing a map from a
15 conversation the following day. Inevitably, this was
16 not intended as a map that would be subject to detailed
17 cross-examination in a court like this. If you look on
18 the original of the photocopy the following day, you
19 can quite clearly see that the Belgrade that I have
20 marked, unlike the other crosses -- the other crosses
21 are in black but the Belgrade is in my ink of the
22 following day.
23 Q. I take it, though, that Belgrade was denoted
24 with a circle in the course of the banquet dinner?
25 A. Belgrade was not denoted with a circle.
Page 7340
1 I recall if I remember putting -- I recall drawing the
2 -- it is very difficult four years later, but I recall
3 drawing the left-hand crosses and saying: let us assume
4 that Belgrade is there, and resting my pen. It did not
5 seem to me that the position of Belgrade, which
6 presumably would be reasonably well known and far away
7 from the conflict, was something that was of great
8 importance. The importance of this was Sarajevo and
9 Banja Luka.
10 Q. Is it fair to say the next morning you
11 improved the map by putting Belgrade in a location
12 where you thought it should be in relation to the other
13 elements of the map?
14 A. No, I did not improve the map. I annotated
15 the map in order that I had a decent recollection of
16 the conversation as it took place -- I believed that to
17 be accurate.
18 Q. So is it your testimony that you did or did
19 not mark in a visible manner with a pen at the banquet
20 the location of Belgrade, sir?
21 A. I marked it by putting my pen on the menu
22 card and leaving behind as I recall a dot, and, when I,
23 in some hurry, and I suppose quite roughly the
24 following morning, made annotations, I may well have
25 put Belgrade in a different place --
Page 7341
1 JUDGE JORDA: The Tribunal is sufficiently
2 informed on this point, Mr. Hayman. Move on, please.
3 I believe that the witness has already answered.
4 MR. HAYMAN: I think he has, Mr. President. I
5 do not have another question about where Belgrade came
6 from on exhibit 275B.
7 Q. If you could direct your attention to 275A,
8 Mr. Ashdown, and perhaps we could focus in on that
9 document and remove 275B for the moment so that it can
10 be seen more clearly. Next to the cross, which you
11 have said indicates Banja Luka, do you see a small B?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And do you recall who made that notation?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. To indicate?
16 A. To indicate it was Banja Luka.
17 Q. The small box next to the B, did you make
18 that notation as well?
19 A. I really cannot remember, Mr. Hayman, who made
20 that notation. You must forgive me. I do not think
21 the box has any significance. We were discussing
22 things at dinner with plates being moved around, dishes
23 being served, glasses of wine being filled. It may
24 well be a pen inadvertently on this very historical
25 document made a mark it should not have done. I really
Page 7342
1 cannot remember.
2 Q. Was it a very relaxed setting at the dinner?
3 A. No, it was a formal state dinner in many
4 ways.
5 Q. Did Dr Tudjman enjoy the hospitality being
6 shown to him at the dinner?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. And he enjoyed the wine?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. And did you enjoy the wine as well?
11 A. I did enjoy the wine.
12 Q. Would you say he became perhaps somewhat
13 intoxicated in the course of the evening?
14 A. If I am blunt with you, I can remember saying
15 that -- I can remember finding the conversation so
16 fascinating that he -- his wine glass appeared to be
17 full for a good deal of the time, yes.
18 Q. Would you agree that he appeared to become
19 somewhat intoxicated in the course of the banquet?
20 A. Mr. Hayman, he is a Head of State. I do not
21 want to use words which would be insulting. Suffice it
22 to say I think he enjoyed himself.
23 Q. And you, did you feel somewhat the effects of
24 the wine in the course of the banquet?
25 A. I enjoyed myself as well, Mr. Hayman.

Page 7343
1 However, I am --
2 JUDGE JORDA: Gentlemen, gentlemen, let me
3 bring us back to serenity in these proceedings. I did
4 not think that we would make inferences about the state
5 of inebriation of a Head of State in this courtroom.
6 This was an official banquet, and there was excellent
7 wine there. Please move to the next question.
8 MR. HAYMAN: If you could direct your
9 attention to 275B, please. At the top someone has
10 written "Lines drawn by Franjo Tudjman"?
11 A. Yes, that is me -- I drew those -- I made
12 those two annotations at the top.
13 Q. Very well. I take it you do not mean to
14 suggest that you drew the far -- the line to the far
15 lower left-hand corner?
16 A. Excuse me?
17 Q. You do not mean to suggest that Dr. Tudjman
18 drew that line. You drew that line?
19 A. As my diary records at the time, I drew that
20 line. The other lines there -- as far as I was
21 concerned when I made that annotation, the interesting
22 lines on this map were drawn by Franjo Tudjman and not
23 by me.
24 Q. You see these large lines, one coming from
25 Banja Luka in the upper left-hand corner. If you go
Page 7344
1 all the way up the upper left-hand corner and find in
2 Banja Luka in Croatia, you see there is a line dropping
3 down from that?
4 A. This is an arrow.
5 Q. So that is not a line?
6 A. No, it is an indicator. If you have a look
7 and see what -- I have done the annotations with an
8 arrow to indicate what they are indicating.
9 Q. All the arrows were not lines and they were
10 not drawn by Dr. Tudjman, they were drawn by you; is
11 that correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. With respect to the S and the division, did
14 Dr. Tudjman in your discussions say that there would be
15 a Croat Federation?
16 A. No. You will see that he drew very clearly
17 the two arrows, and I said, "What is this side?" He
18 drew an arrow and said: that is Serbia. I said: and
19 what is this side. He drew an arrow and he said: that
20 is Croatia. He said that the Muslim State, Bosnian
21 State, would not exist; it would be an insignificant
22 part, as I recall -- my diary notes -- an insignificant
23 part of the Croat Federation.
24 Q. Of the Croat Federation. What did you
25 understand that to be referring to, the Croat
Page 7345
1 Federation?
2 A. Well, I meant that it would be -- what would
3 be essentially Croatia with a dominant Croatia in
4 control.
5 Q. Not part of the Republic of Croatia, but some
6 element of territory in some Federal or federation
7 relationship with Croatia, perhaps?
8 A. The words in my diary are the ones that
9 I would wish to fall back on here, because they are
10 exactly what he said as I recall them. He said they
11 would be an insignificant part of the Croat Federation.
12 Q. My focus is on "Croat Federation" and whether
13 he told you that the Croat Federation would be in
14 federation with Croatia, or in federation with other
15 component parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. I got it absolutely clearly that it would be
17 in federation with Croatia. As far as I was concerned,
18 this was going to be -- the impression I got was this
19 would be Greater Croatia.
20 Q. Did he say that to you -- that was your
21 impression. Did he say that?
22 A. No, he did not say that, Mr. Hayman, as
23 I recall, but I think the arrow and the indication
24 shows perfectly clearly that he sees two elements here,
25 a Serb element and a Croat element, and that
Page 7346
1 Croat element would be of a single unitary nature
2 and it would be with Croatia.
3 Q. Did he refer to those elements as cultural in
4 nature, or as constituting a State, one State on each
5 side of the S, or did he not specify, sir?
6 A. He only referred to it -- I mean cultural
7 I suppose, Mr. Hayman, and I am trying -- this is a
8 dinner-table conversation -- the only indication
9 that I would have had that he saw that as being
10 cultural, was that there was a very strong racist
11 overtone in his approach to Muslims, and I think he
12 regarded the Muslim element as an inferior element, who
13 basically did not matter in the outcome; they were
14 going to be part of Croatia. The only cultural element
15 I can think of was in his very insulting, almost racist
16 approach, to Muslims.
17 Q. But I take it he did not specify beyond that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Whether he was referring to Croat
20 territory as culturally Croat, or being inhabited by
21 ethnic Croats versus part of the Croat State, that
22 is, the Republic of Croatia?
23 A. No, the significant point was that he said
24 that he regarded the Muslims as having a very small
25 part to play and of no significance and this was a
Page 7347
1 matter between himself and President Milosevic. This
2 was going to be settled as between Croatia and Serbia
3 and I got the firm view, in the conversation, that this
4 was an already done deal, that this was an agreement.
5 I mean, we all, of course, know that there is
6 some suspicion about such a deal being in existence and
7 the famous Tito Hunting Lodge Agreement. The clear
8 indication I got was the result of the offensive that
9 would be launched at or around August or September of
10 that year would be in settlement of the outstanding
11 Bosnian/Muslim problem and that settlement would be a
12 division between Croatia on the one hand and Serbia on
13 the other. I can draw no other conclusion but that
14 conclusion from the two arrows that are drawn on the
15 map and indeed from his conversation.
16 Q. Well, he told you, did he not, that he would
17 launch a military action to retake the Krajina in the
18 late summer or fall of 1995; correct?
19 A. As I recall, he linked this to the end of the
20 UN mandate, and of course, at that time, the UN mandate
21 would have been known to end around about the end of
22 the summer -- at all events, the following morning when
23 I got my diary notes back -- and I always ask for my
24 diary notes back -- they are typed by my secretary -- I
25 entered into the diary that he told me that, quite
Page 7348
1 bluntly, at the end of the UN mandate, they would then
2 take the Knin/Krajina probably in August or September.
3 When that subsequently happened, I felt it was right
4 and proper to make sure this conversation and this map
5 was released into the public domain, because I wanted
6 the international community to know what I believed his
7 intentions were, how they had been pre-planned.
8 I believe it is fair to say, by so doing, we may well
9 have limited the achievement of those ambitions.
10 Q. To return to my question for a moment, he
11 told you then that he intended, when the UN mandate
12 expired in the Krajina, to retake the Krajina by force
13 with the Croat military -- correct?
14 A. That was the indication.
15 Q. In fact, that subject was the subject of a
16 wager between the two of you?
17 A. It was.
18 Q. Did he tell you, at any time during the
19 dinner, that he planned to undertake a military action
20 to take any part of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 A. No, he did not say that, but it must be
22 perfectly clear from the map that he drew, because the
23 clear implication was that the Krajina operation was
24 the first stage of an operation to bring about the
25 situation which he described when he drew the map.
Page 7349
1 Q. That was the inference you drew; is that
2 right?
3 A. That was the inference I drew. My own
4 military experience tells me that, when you start these
5 things, it is best to continue, especially if you are
6 on the kind of roll he thought he was going to be on.
7 Q. Is it your testimony that, when you left the
8 banquet, you believed some kind of agreement between
9 Tudjman and Milosevic was in place -- was that your
10 belief at the time?
11 A. That was never discussed, but it was my
12 belief that this was the fulfilment of an
13 understanding as between President Tudjman and
14 President Milosevic. I concluded that, if he was
15 serious about retaking the Krajina, then it would have
16 been impossible for him to do so, militarily, without
17 extraordinary loss of life and huge military campaigns,
18 unless there had been a tacit understanding about the
19 release of the Knin Krajina.
20 Q. Are you stating you believe there was a deal
21 regarding the Krajina or a deal involving
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. The deal is the map. The deal is the S on
24 the map -- that is the deal.
25 Q. Did you believe that that deal existed when
Page 7350
1 you left the banquet?
2 A. I left -- I left believing that such a deal
3 was likely to be in existence. I have no proof of it
4 but I left believing that that was a strong
5 probability.
6 Q. Now, you got your typed notes back fairly
7 shortly?
8 A. Yes. I mean, forgive me, I cannot remember
9 exactly how long, but the normal routine is I will
10 dictate my diary on the night. Very, very occasionally
11 I will do it the following night but within usually a
12 few hours -- I dictate them at the end of the day, they
13 are given to my secretary, they are typed up. I would
14 have had these back within I suppose six days,
15 something like that. That would be the normal --
16 Q. When you got the notes back, and you of
17 course had your map, did you believe you were in
18 possession of information potentially of diplomatic or
19 intelligence significance?
20 A. No, I could not believe that it was likely
21 that what President Tudjman said he was going to do he
22 would actually do. I had a document which I regarded
23 as being of historical information, but I would not go
24 further than that.
25 Q. Would you agree that, at the time, in June of
 

Page 7351
1 1995, it was a matter of public record that President
2 Tudjman and the Republic of Croatia took the position
3 that, unless there was a political agreement by autumn,
4 Croatia would launch a military campaign to recover the
5 occupied areas of Croatia, where rebels had proclaimed
6 a breakaway republic of the Serb Krajina -- would
7 you agree that was a matter of public record at the
8 time?...

Obrana "odusevila". Takvo mlitavo ispitivanje.
Pobogu, ta cijela rasprava je, kako Paddy tvrdi, bila za vecerom uz hrpu drugih uzvanika? Sto je tako tesko pronaci svjedoke? Pa da vidimo, sjeca li se netko tog razgovora.

Vrlo je interesantna Ashdownova izjava kako je Tudjman koristio izraz "wog" za Muslimane. U engleskom rijecniku pise kako je to rasisticka rijec kojom se ozna?avaju ljudi koji nemaju bijelu boju ko?e. Koliko znam, Franjo nije ba? ne?to briljirao u stranim jezicima, a ovo nije rijeC koja se uci u skoli stranih jezika.