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< Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)

Just some responses:

I have no intention to revert articles wholesale to use any particular style. As I have made quite clear before, however, when I edit an article I will try to bring it in line with whatever the current Manual of Style convention is. As was written here before: "NB: the Manual of Style is not mandatory. However, copyeditors will change entries to match the manual of style".

If we, the community, decide that both styles can be used, in different situations or arbitrarily, then I will obviously respect that decision. I won't like it, of course, so in the meantime, I will try to argue for a solution that favors consistency throughout Wikipedia. International online Dating service, Romance, Matchmaking, and Marriage at the
International Wife Finders - Links to Dating and Matchmaking Agencies All. As for compromises like automated conversion, I'm willing to use that as well. Let's just agree on what to do and then do it.

James is turning this into a huge British vs. American thing. I don't view it like this at all -- as a German I'm used to writing "22. Juni", not "22 June" or "June 22". International dating service. But James has clearly demonstrated (thanks!) that the "June 22" variant is vastly preferred within Wikipedia. It is preferred by me also, but I could accept any other variant, so James' suggestion that I am hell bent on "americanising" entries is completely ridiculous. I am, however, very concerned about having Wikipedia look like a professionally edited encyclopedia, with consistent style throughout. The Encyclopedia Britannica has agreed to use the Month Day format -- it's fine with me if we agree to use another format, as long as we agree to use one.

Some UK-English writers have, in the last months, managed to sneak in not through a comunity process but through backdoor discussions, the privilege to use their date style on "their pages". It is one of Wikipedia's biggest virtues that "pages are not owned by anyone. International dating agency «LadyOrchid» was founded in 2001 and now is one of the most reputable agencies in Vinnitsa and is also famous in Ukraine. " Yet Mav proposes exactly that. Editors will first have to

Check: article has dates in it? Yes: Use that style - No: ProceedCheck: article is about a British subject? Yes: Use British style - No: ProceedUse "American" style

Any newbie who doesn't get that complicated process and uses what he is used to will find a long, insulting essay on his personal talk page. Not consistently, of course: On some pages the original authors will just not care whatever is used, so any change will go unnoticed. What we get is the situation we have now: The vast majority uses the "American" style, but some articles, both about UK and about non-UK subjects, use a different one for no discernible reason. If you care about the professional look of Wikipedia, this is a prime example of how to look unprofessional. So are the edit wars that will inevitably result. says, "I established Valenti International to give educated, cultured successful I came to Valenti International in hopes that they a call to Valenti International that led to one.

Mav and others will keep their mouths shut about this because they are afraid to lose valuable contributors. James et al. get their way not because they are right, but because they are louder than everyone else. And of course he's trying to blame me for bringing the issue up again, after he and others have so successfully managed to subvert the open decision making process in favor of a proprietary one.

James has repeatedly asserted (without any evidence, of course), that the world majority prefers the BE style (which, as has been pointed out, is silly anyway, since billions use different calendars altogether). Not only this, he states that "most of the rest of the world finds wiki's pre-occupation with american english, and with americanising anything and everything irritating. FriendFinder is the premier online community for friendship, dating, romance and more. " Whatever James does, he can always be sure to have "most of the rest of the world" on his side. ;-)

He is not willing to change his position by a millimeter. To tolerate "US"-style dates because British spelling is used in some articles? How could you ask such a terrible thing! He will have nightmares for days because I brought this up.

Well, what "most of the rest of the world" thinks doesn't really matter anyway -- we don't write in Chinese either. And, frankly, James is only one of thousands of Wikipedians. If he can't get his way and leaves because of it, then I will find this very unfortunate, but not very surprising given how easily he gets aggravated. Become a free member. What matters is what most of the contributors to this wiki think, and I am one of them. I have expressed my opinion, you get your chance to express yours. If there are objections to the vote as it is currently set up, I am very much in favor of letting Martin set up a new one.

Always remember: There is no Wikipedia cabal. And the one strategy that would be effective in establishing such a cabal is to let some highly valued long time contributors like James get their way simply through long, loud complaints and threats to leave Wikipedia if everyone else doesn't comply. After all, we never want to lose a contributor. Web-design - CredoDesign. But I'm not willing to drop the established community process because a small clique thinks they can get away with doing so. --Eloquence 16:11 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Having copyedited eight articles in the last hour based on a 1911 Brittanica, I think we have bigger professionalism issues than dates. (Modern) Brittanica uses AE style, because, like many commercial products, the US market is overwhelmingly important to them. I don't see that a free encyclopedia has to addopt US style. You (Eloquence) seem quite blase about losing contributors over such a minor issue, whereas I would rather have more contributors of good quality articles. This is a voluntary activity none of us are paid for, and I think you are losing sight of that in a desire for unbending conformity. We can't guarantee success but you'll. jimfbleak 16:23 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)You mean jaded? lysdexia 00:01, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)The "bigger professionalism issues" is a red herring and the fact that people keep waving it confirms that I am correct: the date style inconsistency is unprofessional. Just because we have deficits in one area doesn't mean we shouldn't fix our deficits in another area. Problems like this tend to accumulate and get worse. We are setting a precedent for segregating Wikipedia into different parts which are governed by different rules. This can cause many, many problems in the long term -- inconsistency only being one of them, confusion and frustration of newbies being another. But as I said, I'm willing to accept whatever solution is favored by most users. Single Life Second Chances Single Parents Speed Dating Dating after 30 Dating after 45 Internet Dating & Personal Ads Dating Sites & Services International Dating USA. --Eloquence 16:41 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)Eloquence claimed "Some UK-English writers have, in the last months, managed to sneak in not through a comunity process but through backdoor discussions" - that is absolute rubbish. All edits were carried out openly and with the full agreement of everyone. Such an accusation is an insult to all the many people who in good faith and with no opposition used the format used in most of the world. In 4 months, only Eloquence has seen this as a 'problem' and elevated himself to our edit god, who has decided that, though no-one else has a problem with using the international-used dating system, he has and so he is entitled to ignore the consensus acceptance of using both systems and enforce what he wants. Regarding the use of 22. Juni - has Eloquence forgotten that this is english wiki, concerned with the use of english, not german?The Encyclopedia Britannica has agreed to use the Month Day format Britannica is a professionally edited published book written by a small group of paid contributors. International matchmaker Offering online free personal dating service to singles
and providing chances to meet people, pen pal, soul mate. Wiki is an international text written by people the world over and so has to accomodate writers from all over the world, many of whom use American english, many of whom don't, many of whom use American dating, many of whom don't. There is no comparison. I never suggested, nor has anyone else, that everyone be forced to write in BE or use the dating form used by most of the planet. We have had a situation where for months both dating systems have been used. It has been universally accepted and respected by most people. One person has decided that he wants to force all wiki contributors to use one dating system, even though it is actually the system used by a minority of english speakers (a small minority of english speaker worldwide) and as part of his campaign decided to americanise the dating system used in articles on non-american topics. Free international dating foreign women in international dating services with foreign ladies. And if he had his way, he would americanise the language too. As I have said, if he wants an american english wiki, he can always create one. But this is english wiki, a wiki in the english language, that belongs or should belong to all english speakers, whereever they live and whatever form of english they use. There are two basic forms of english. Wiki needs to be able (as it has been in recent months openly and honestly) to accept articles in either, using either of the dating systems used. For wiki to order users to use one form is unacceptable, whether the ordered version be one used by the majority of english speakers (BE, dd/mm/yy) or the minority one (AE, mm/dd/yy. Online Dating Safety Tips Copyright © 2003-2006 New-Dating. ). Users of BE have shown courtesy and respect to those who use AE. Users of dd/mm/yy have shown the same respect to users of mm/dd/yy. And most AE users and users of mm/dd/yy have shown the same respect in return. But a small minority haven't and in the case of Eloquence, have attempted to force their preference on everyone else. That is the crux of the problem. international marriage agency. All I have advocated is a continuation of the current policy of respecting difference. Mav endorses that. Many others do to. One person doesn't and has caused this row; Eloquence. FearÉIREANN 23:20 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)The problem, James, is that there was an ongoing vote on the subject, and that the vote result did not favor the inconsistent standard which you want to use throughout Wikipedia. Mav argues or has argued that this doesn't matter, and that because the two leading options would both scare off contributors, one of the lower ranking options has to be used. Free international dating services and matchmaking community for singles.

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