Easterling's Transcript

Meeting Date: July 28, 1998

Persons Present: Gina, Lavern, and Danny Easterling

Meeting Place: The Office of Danny Easterling

The walk-in conversation consists of Danny asking Lavern if she has spoken to

Windeon’s lawyers. The walk-out conversation is Danny speaking about the baby.

The Tape

Danny: Where do you all want to start?

Laverne: First thing I want to ask is when was the last time you talk to or saw Shaun?

Danny: No. I got a phone call from him, I want to say, about 2 weeks ago. I talked

for about a full 20 minutes. He wanted to make sure I was going to meet him before

his court date. He told me he had been going to the law library.

Gina: Mr. Easterling what I’m concern about is why is it that you only see him until a

couple of days before his court date?

Danny: Because I’m a lawyer and not a baby-sitter.

Gina: I can appreciate that but why only when you go to court.

Danny: I see Shaun about as much as I need to to affectively do my job. And I don’t

think I’m ignoring him. I don’t think I’m seeing him any less than I’m seeing any other

clients. Do you all think I am?

Gina: I have concerns.

Danny: How many times do you feel I need to see him?

Gina: I can’t answer that question. I’m asking you because he is concerned.

Danny: I talk to him before I go to court, but he knows everything I’ve ever done. So,

do you all. He knows every single thing. So, do you all. I’ve answered every single

question. David has a habit, a policy, see every lawyer is different.

Laverne: I know cause Cunningham--

Danny: He sees his clients in jail more than anybody I know and I commend him for

that. I have a feeling that if they were going to seek the death penalty on Shaun I

would have seen him a lot more.

Gina: So, at this point, we don’t know if they are going to seek the death Penalty?

Danny: I don’t know it for positive, but uh, the DA’s told me he’d be pretty darn

shocked if they did.

Gina: The DA told you that?

Danny: Yeah.

Gina: Isn’t he the one that decides?

Danny: Excuse me.

Gina: Isn’t the District Attorney the one who would decide whether or not--

Danny: The District Attorney himself Johnny Holmes did not phone me, the trial

prosecutor told me they would be very, very surprised if they sought the death penalty

against Shaun.

Laverne: Why did they put a title of capital murder against him, if he was not the shooter.

Danny: Let me explain this the best way I can.

Laverne: And they know he is not the shooter.

Danny: The law of parties in the state of Texas, is the following. You all have

probably-- you have heard the word accessory.

Laverne: Well, while you are looking it up, can you explain it to me.

Danny: I’m going to read it to you, word for word. I’ve explained it to you all several

times, so now I’m going to read it to you.

Laverne: Cause you know I just saw a case on TV, where there was a murder where three

people were involved and two got aggravated and one got capital murder.

Danny: I remember the case. I’m familiar with the case.

Laverne: They were actually there and they were a partaker of the event.

Danny: They were a party to.

Laverne: Uh, right. Exactly.

Danny: They didn’t shoot the guy. They didn’t kill the guy, only one guy did it.

Laverne: They only got aggravated robbery.

Danny: After they did that, when it came down to the trial date, after all the

investigation was complete, they finally agreed to do that. And I’m hoping that’s what’s

going to happen in Shaun’s case. But we are not anywhere near the trial date. So,

they never do anything early like that.

Laverne: Okay, like, this just happened not to long ago and we’re already hearing this is the

only thing they got. So, I know they didn’t get a trial date--they didn’t go through

different trials that quickly.

Danny: Yeah, they do, in different courts. That’s a different court they get trials

quickly.

Laverne: That was mighty fast. It wasn’t a lot of time.

Danny: But you shouldn’t be concerned-- or worried if you don’t think I’m talking to him

enough. That should be the least of your worries.

Gina: Actually, it ‘s my real concern is--what-- not how many times you talk to him; it’s

what takes place when you are talking to him that concerns me. So, he’s asked me to

ask these questions for clarity.

Danny: I will answer any questions he ever has. I’ve done that. And I will continue to

do that. Now he may not like my answers, but I’ll answer the question. And that’s my

job.

Gina: Well my main question is what is your defense?

Danny: What’s the defense?

Gina: Yeah.

Danny: The defense is that he did not aide, abet and assist Windeon Sanders in

committing capital murder. He was there to rob the people, he was there to burglarize

the home. He was there to take dope and money. He wasn’t there to harm anybody,

but he wasn’t there certainly to participated or had intent to participate. I have said

that kind of thing to you all ten or fifteen at least, at least.

Gina: Well, I heard you say that he was guilty. That alarms me.

Danny: Oh, he is guilty.

Gina: He’s guilty of burglary.

Danny: That’s right, I’ve never, ever said that he was guilty of capital murder, Gena

and you can’t tell me that I have. I’ve never said that. Ever.

*Gina: When we were arguing the murder, so

Danny: I’ve never ever said he was guilty of capital murder and you’ll never ever hear

it come out of my mouth, anywhere. Not in the hallway, not in this office and not in the

court room. And I’ve never ever told Shaun he was guilty of capital murder ever have I

told him that. Anything else?

Laverne: Have you filed any motions for him towards, you know, to get the sentence

dropped.

Danny: There is no motion in the system of criminal law that I can file now, pretrial that

say please reduce his case from capital murder to aggravated robbery. There is no

such motion. The motion has to occur... Now, I can beg and I can plead with the DA

like I have been through out the entire case for them to do that and I will continue to do

that. But there’s not a legal motion that I can file asking for that to be done. Okay, you

can request what’s called a jury instruction. When he gets to trial if the DA is

continuing to be stubborn and push this capital murder case on Shaun, which I think

would be unwise, but that’s what the Grand Jury did. They indicted him for that.

That’s what they’re indicting him for right now. If they continue to push that, when we

have the trial I can file what’s called a request for a Jury instruction. The jury be given

the option of the reduced charge of aggravated robbery, and/or burglary of a

habitation. And it’s going to be up to the jury to decide whether he was only there

doing that or if he was aiding, abetting, or assisting Windeon. So, at the proper time

absolutely I will be screaming and yelling for the reduced charge. Right now, all I can

do is scream and yell at the DA and tell him he’s being stupid and he’s being stubborn

for what I think is over charging Shaun. Okay. But he’s got a grand jury that returned

an indictment for capital murder. He’s in the drivers seat right now because until I can

get to trial with Shaun there’s no way I can get anybody, right now to understand that

he’s only guilty of a lesser charge.

Laverne: Okay. What are we actually looking at August the 12th? What is going to actually

happen--

Danny: Pretrial motions that sets you up for a trial. The motions that we file for pretrial

settings like that are discovery related. So, that you have all of the motions that you

have to protect the rights of the defendant to get ready for the trial. The main one that

I filed is right here and I’ve given him a copy of it. It’s a motion for discovery,

production and inspection of the evidence, it’s a 16 page motion very, very thorough. It

covers any and all evidence they have to produce to show me and David and Alan--all

three lawyers what they have. They have already compiled substantially with that by

giving us this tape that we listened to by showing us photographs, by giving us a copy

of the autopsy, that type of a thing. This will be a little more detailed. When we get in

there on the motions, we’re actually going to be requesting copies of the photos, so

that I can go over those photos with Shaun and show him the location of the body.

The location of where the gun shots was. One of the gun shots went into the back, the

headboard. So that we can get the direction of it showing how the forensic evidence is

going to come out, the direction of the bullet. Those kinds of things. And also, it gives

us a sense of what the bedroom looks like; so that Shaun will know where Windeon

was standing, those kinds of things. If there’s any other type of forensic evidence that

any of the experts from the state can use, we need to be aware of any of their reports

like if they’ve done a ballistics test on the bullet, if they’ve got any fingerprints, in the

bedroom or anywhere in the house. We’re entitled to all of that so we’ll know what the

physical evidence is as well as any witnesses are and so on. So, there’ll probably be a

lot of agreements at the pretrial motions. But, sometimes you’ve got to get the judge

to order them to do some of the things. I’m going to be talking with David and Alan

when we get closer to it. Uh, what they feel like we may not have an agreement on.

But, Shaun thinks there is a motion-- and this is jail house talk is what it is--that there

is a motion that I can magically file, have it filed on August 12th and go up and ask the

judge to reduce his charge. It’s not legally possible to do that. The judge cannot do

that. There is no way under the old criminal procedure or the Texas penal code, that

the judge, or any judge can reduce this charge. It can only be done after all the

evidence is heard.

Gina: Then, let me ask you this, What is a plea bargain?

Danny: A plea bargain is an agreement between the state and the defendant; where

the state makes a recommended punishment and the defendant accepts that

punishment.

Gina: Pretrial?

Danny: Yes, yes. And it happens all the time. I have told the DA we would be happy

to talk plea bargain as long as they were willing to reduce the charge to aggravated

robbery or burglary. We’d be happy to talk some kind of plea bargain and they know

that. And it may happen, but I have a feeling it’s not going to happen ‘til after

Windeon’s trial. I have a feeling they want Windeon’s trial to happen, they want all of

the evidence to come out. They want to see how the young 16 year old girl is going to

testify. They want to see how she holds up to the pressure, all the trauma she’s going

to have to go through. I think they want to see how the jury treats Windeon. I think

they want to see what’s gonna happen. Because Windeon’s got some issues too, that

the jury’s going to have to resolve. If, as I told you all last time in the hallway, I feel like

and my opinion is and I think Alan and David will probably agree with this too--If the

state gets what they want in Windeon’s case and they go all the way and seek the

death penalty and the jury gives him the death penalty they are going to be doing it

with Shaun. They are going to feel confident. They are going to feel cocky. And they

may not offer him any kind of lesser deal. They may say we are going to go for life, in

a capital murder trial. And we are going to take our shot and see if the jury goes for it.

If the jury in Windeon’s case though shows some mercy on Windeon, let’s say, they

don’t give him the death penalty or even better let’s say they have some doubt that

Windeon intentionally killed the lady. Basically the statement says the gun went off as

she grabbed his hand. If that’s a fact that’s not intentional. He didn‘t have the intent to

kill her. Let’s say they have some mercy on him and they give him some type of

reduced charge maybe manslaughter, maybe regular murder what ever it is the

reduced charge may be it’d be it’d by their choice. And I think it would be great for

Windeon and I think it would be great for Shaun, because I think at that point the state

can finally get reasonable and see the defense with all this and I think then they will

offer up some kind of plea bargain that maybe Shaun can live with. And I can tell you

this, in any kind of case where someone gets killed like this they are not going to offer

anything light. Not in a murder trial. They are not going to offer 5 to ten years. They

don’t do that-- Even if he is a first offender 18 years old they wouldn’t do that.

Gina: In whose case?

Danny: I say even if they had a first offender 18 years old they wouldn’t do that offer 5

to ten years.

Gina: I understand that, but--

Danny: There is a much different situation here. Shaun is a mature adult and he is on

probation for robbery. Okay. They look upon that very dimly, if your on probation for

robbery and you go out get involved in something this serious.

Laverne: But at the same time when they show how faithful he was to probation don’t you

think they --

Danny: Oh they don’t care about that one bit. I do but the DA could care less about

that. They know he committed a robbery. They know that. They feel this way--there

mentality is that if he committed robbery one time he should never ever break the law

again.

Laverne: Did he ever discuss with you what actually happened?

Danny: Oh yeah. They don’t care. The DA’s don’t care about the details of the case.

It had robbery on it. That’s all they care about.

Gina: And they are this adamant based upon what harsh language?

Danny: Excuse me?

Gina: They are being this adamant based upon harsh language and the fact that he had

a weapon?

Danny: All of that the fact that he had a weapon, that he alleged threaten to kill these

people, had a gun in their face, demanded money, demanded drugs demanded

jewelry. Scared them to death. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Gina: and--

Danny: --now--again I can tell-- That’s what it is on paper. We know there’s always

two sides to every story. And I have talked to Shaun a many times about what really

happened and he claims that a lot of that is not true. Well it all boils down to how the

sixteen year old witnesses going to hold up. Is the jury going to believe her version or

are they going to believe Shaun’s version, you see. Well, it doesn’t take a genius to

figure out that most people on a jury is going to believe a innocent sixteen year old

who has never been in trouble before over somebody who is on probation for robbery.

Gina: How do you know that the sixteen year old has never been in trouble before? Are

you going to have her record pulled.

Laverne: Are they going to look at that?

Gina: Did they pull her record is my question?

Danny: We will get to that after all these pretrial motions.

Gina: Are you going to pull Phyllis’ record, because she has a record I know.

Laverne: As well, the husband.

Danny: Fairly the husband’s-- His record will be pulled. Phyllis we may or may not get

to do that. Now, if she is going to testify the rules of evidence state we can pull that

record if she is going to get up on the witness stand. But if they are dead the judge is

probably not going to allow us to use this. But, we will make the request to pull it and--

she was no angel I know that-- but I don’t believe that the sixteen year old had been

arrested she may have been in trouble before. She probably may have run around

doing illegal stuff; but to prove it. I don’t know. It’s worth looking into.

Laverne: Have you all been able to locate her at this time. I know you had a problem

investigating--trying to find her.

Danny: Uh Huh. I’ve backed off from that.

Laverne: And your reason was?

Danny: Because I am waiting to hear from David and Alan, whether we want to talk to

her pretrial or not. The last time I talked to them they weren’t sure. They were still

thinking about it--See, because now the death penalty cases they do things a little bit

differently. They do things that might be hurtful to Shaun. What may happen is we

may not try to talk to her. That decision does need to be made.

Laverne: And your reason is because you feel it could cause damage or it’s not helpful?

Danny: See, it is a sensitive thing when you talk to a young witness--particularly one

who’s mother got killed right in her face. And it may just be an exercise anyway. She

doesn’t have to talk to us where ever she is living. Number one, she could say heck

no I ain’t talking to you. The DA and the officers told me I don’t have to talk to

anybody if I don’t want to. Now, if they intentionally told her don’t talk to anybody

period. We are telling you not to. Now, that’s a different statement. You don’t have to

talk to them if you don’t want to and that’s all they have to do. See, most of the time

they will not talk any way; and if she was living with an aunt like you think she is that

Aunt probably is not going to let her not to talk to me either. Just trying to protect her, I

guess. You know. No, I don’t want her to talk to you it’s bad enough she has to go to

court. I don’t want her to re-hash it. If you had a sixteen year old girl you probably

would not want her talking to a stranger about a murder either. So, it really is an

exercise to think about right now. It’s something that I wanted to do and it’s you know--

if Windeon’s case wasn’t set the way it was for the death penalty I’m sure we would

have tracked her down, and we would have talked to her or at least tried to talk to her

on my side the case a long time ago. I’ve kinda backed off from it to kinda wait and

see what David and Alan are going to do. Because, you know, I don’t want to do

something that’s going to trample on their strategy. Their going to trial first.

Gina: What do you mean you don’t want to trample of their strategy?

Danny: We are not communicating very well Gena?

Gina: Sure we are. It’s just--

Danny: We are not communicating.

Gina: For you to say that--I know there is--

Danny: That is a plain sentence. That is a plain sentence.

Gina: Well, let me explain it to you this way: Your client is Shaun Sanders. Now

Windeon I understand--

Danny: I understand that and he is my number one concern. She’s got a son looking

at the death penalty, he’s gonna have needles stuck in his arms, and killed. All right.

Now, I am not going to do anything that hurts or prejudices Shaun Sanders’ case

however if they are going to trial first I have a right to talk with their lawyers and

collaborate on pretrial strategies. If I feel like it will be a big disservice to Windeon and

Shaun together then I’m not going to do it. So, don’t get this attitude with me that I’m

not looking after Shaun’s rights because that’s what your getting at and I’m sick of it.

Gina: Do I have an attitude?

Danny: Yes I do.

Gina: No, Let me tell you my concerns if you don’t understand my attitude. We have

been patient with you. We have been patient with--

Danny: Why would you ask me that question? You asked me that question in a

negative way. “What do you mean you don’t want to trample of their case?”

Gina: No, I didn’t. I’m sorry if you don’t like my tone of voice and I will calm down so you

will have no problems understanding what I’m saying.

Danny: --well good, good. We’ll both calm down.

Gina: We have been extremely patient for a year and I have sat back on the phone and

listened to you tell me how heinous the murder was -

Danny: It was do you disagree? Do you disagree?

Gina: How? I wasn’t there. I know what Shaun has told me and based on what he told

me and what Windeon is saying--

Danny: It’s a cold blooded shooting or it was an accident, right? That’s for the jury to

decide.

Gina: We have been extremely patient and I have not, have not heard you say once what

your defense was.

Danny: Oh yes you have. You hadn’t been listening.

Gina: --No, sir. No sir. Let me tell you what you told Shaun. Let me tell you what you

told Shaun, because I specifically--

Danny: Were you there when I told Shaun? Were you there when I talked to Shaun

or are you listening to what he’s telling you?

Gina: Now who is being argumentative? What he told me and what you told me--and let

me quote you verbatim--”His case is in the hands of the jury.” Do those words sound

familiar?

Danny: His case will be in the hands of the jury.

Gina: Do you think that was a proper answer when he was asking you what kind of

defense you were preparing for him?

Danny: I told him what the defense was. I’ve got it written down here. Thats when I

went to see him the first time in jail. I spent over an hour with him telling him what his

defense was. I’ve got it written down here.

Gina: This is the time you saw him in May. You saw him that Saturday. You said your

case is in the hands of the jury. So, if I seem a little agitated that’s because I am a

little agitated. But I am being patient.

Danny: Everybody’s case is in the hands of the jury, if they go to a jury trial. That’s

correct. It’s going to be up to the jury to decide what he is guilty of. Now what is

wrong with saying that. Nothing.

Gina: Because that doesn’t answer his question. What is your defense?

Danny: I told him what the defense was. I told you all today and I told him over and

over again. He’s not a party to the capital murder. He didn’t aid, abet, or assist

Windeon Sanders.

Gina: Can you be a little more specific? Then, let me give you some examples. Do you

intend--Why is it you are not allowing Windeon to make statements on Shaun Sanders

behalf. Because it seems to me--

Danny: I didn’t. You are asking the wrong person here. I’m not Windeon’s

lawyer--

Gina: That’s right. You are working with his lawyer.

Danny: Yes, I am.

Gina: Then this had to have come up.

Danny: I am going to call Windeon as a witness in Shaun’s case if I have to.

Absolutely. It is up to David and Alan to decide whether he talks and gives a

statement or not, not me. They make those decisions. Windeon will be called as a

witness. Now, will they let him testify, I don’t know. That’s their decision. Windeon

you know, Windeon probably does have some good things to say about Shaun. And I

don’t doubt that a bit. Now, when he does be called it’s gonna be after he’s had his

trial. Now, if he gets a death sentence you think that his lawyers are going to let him

testify--I doubt it. I sure will beg them to.

Laverne: Well, why wouldn’t they.

Danny: You will have to ask them that.

Gina: Shaun is being tried after Windeon.

Danny: You have to ask them that.

Laverne: We know. We understand that. It seems like though-- What I’m saying like right

now Mr. Easterling hopefully and pray to God he don’t get the death penalty but after

he gets convicted--He gets sentenced I’ll put it that way. It seems like to me his trial --

he is taken care of. They should not stop him from testifying for his brother.

Danny: That’s what you need to talk to them about. However, if its based upon appeal

and it may come back to the court. The lawyers are scared that if he says something

that may be use against him if the state comes back on appeal, see. That is the only

thing that I am thinking of. But that’s there decision. I am not stopping Windeon from

making statements of behalf of Shaun. No way would I ever do that.

Gina: And you haven’t tried to see Windeon?

Danny: No. I don’t need to see Windeon now? I can get anything I need to know from

his lawyers? And if I tried the law really says I have to get their permission to do it.

Yeah, Windeon , either in the last court date or the one before that I shook his hand.

David and I--yeah--He introduced me. I shook his hand there on the bench. And then

he said. “I want to talk to you“. I said, “that’s fine. I‘ve got to get there permission”.

So, he wants to talk to me. I think he wants to tell me. And I’m no dummy. I think he

wants to tell me Shaun didn’t have anything to do with this murder. He didn’t plan it to

kill anybody. Shaun didn’t egg me on to kill anybody. He wasn’t anywhere close to me

when the trigger went off. You know, I’m sorry I even talked him into going over there.

It was my idea to go over there. He’s gone say all those things. I know he will. If he

gets their permission to talk. No doubt in my mind. Now, he says some of those

things in his own confession. You know. Y’all know that. Now, will he get to say that

on the witness stand at Shaun’s trial I don’t know. But, I sure pray to God that they will

let him do it. And I don’t know. We will get to that when we get to that. But, there’s no

reason to get upset with me because I haven’t gone and talked to Windeon or I haven’t

tried to force a statement out of him because--

Gina: I am not hardly upset. I am just asking question, which brings me to my next

question Do you intend to have any witnesses, for example, his brother, the girls that

were there that night?

Danny: I will fill the court room with any witness who will benefit Shaun Sanders. And

yes, I’ll call every one of them. Absolutely. If I didn’t do that I would be a poor lawyer.

You bet. You know, the people that were there at Windeon’s apartment, you know they

may even be on the state’s subpoena list. For all I know. They’ve got their names.

They know all that stuff. So, yeah. If any of those people can back up Shaun’s

version. Absolutely. And all of y’all will testify at the punishment stage. So, the jury

knows there are people out there that care about him. And I apologize about getting

upset. Anytime someone comes in a questions what I am doing I justify my work. I

am proud of my work. That’s all. I get a little sensitive to people who criticize, or come

close to criticizing. But, I promise you I’ve told Shaun many times what his defense is.

I hadn’t just said, “It’s in the hands of the jury.” He knows everything. Shaun knows

what his defense is. Now, whether he believes me or not. I don’t know. Shaun has a

way of me trying to explain something to him and he goes off on a tangent and he

wants to ask a question right while I am trying to explain something to him so I don’t

think he keeps the thoughts in mind what I‘m trying to say. I’m not criticizing. But, I’m

saying I’ve told him over and over again and I’ve took notes here from my meetings

that look Shaun here is what it’s going to boil down to. This is what I see how you are

going to have a good change of getting a reduced sentence. No intent to kill no plan.

No intent to kill anybody. He didn’t have any plan at all to harm anybody. He went

over there for drugs and money. He didn’t think anybody was going to be home.

There is absolutely no collaboration, corroboration, aiding, abetting or assisting. I’ve

showed him the law of parties the way the jury will be instructed. The jury instruction

on the law is he is only guilty of capital murder if the evidence proves beyond a

reasonable doubt that aided, abetted or assist Windeon somehow in the killing. What

Shaun may be telling Gina is “Oh yeah, he is telling me it is in the hands of the jury.”

He is missing the other details I may have been telling him all along that these are fact

questions that have to be decided by a jury, whether he helped Windeon out. I’ve

seen the statement given by the sixteen year old and I don’t see anything in there that

suggests in any way that Shaun helped out in anyway to this murder. Now, y’all

heard the statements made by the sixteen year old. Do you?, no of course not. And

I’m hoping something good will come out of Windeon’s trial for Shaun. If she sticks

with that same statement, which she should, her head is down in the bed. It doesn’t

say anything about Shaun egging Windeon on--encouraging him--even being around

him. Now, if she now comes up to trial and says something stupid or crazy like that--If

you, if you are on a jury you would be awful suspicious about her changing her story

like that. I know I would. Any reasonable juror would. So, it’s unlikely she is going to

come up with something crazy like that. So, if that is all they have then--you know.

Let’s hope something good comes out of Windeon’s trial. Maybe they will only convict

him of a lesser sentence. We don’t know there are a lot of “if’s”.

Laverne: What happens if by her being so young-- See, cause a lot of times because of a

loved one being taken there is a lot of hatred and stuff builds up and first thing you are

looking at is an eye for an eye. So, they are telling her you say this and you say that.

And she gets up there and they are putting this idea that we want to get both of them if

her dads gonna wind up in jail-- Saying something totally from what’s on the tape.

Danny: I hear what you are saying.

Laverne: Could that help our case. Couldn’t her testimony get thrown out.

Danny: Well, her testimony can’t be thrown out but it can be impeached. And what I

mean by-- We have all the right in the world to play her tape and compare her tape to

what she saying now. I can dissect every little bit of what she’s saying. For instance,

“now wait a minute isn’t it true-- Didn’t you say back on this date when it was fresh in

your mind, 2 or 3 hours after this incidence, you made this statement to the homicide

officers and you didn’t say a thing about it did you. You had to get that from

somewhere.” I know how to ask all those questions--- I’ve been doing this for 18

years. So, yeah. He can’t throw her testimony out but he can discredit it, impeach it to

where it is not worth a flip. That’s what Lawyers are for on cross -examination, to test

the credibility of the witness. So, yeah. If she comes across with something out of the

blue, that she didn’t tell the detectives it won’t hold up--unless the jury is you know not

listening or something. But, naw. Yeah. I’m hoping that the DA will get real and finally

get reasonable after all this stuff comes out that

But I’m telling you and I think any lawyer will tell you the key to the states case

depends largely on how that sixteen year old holds up on the stand. She is absolutely

the heart and soul of their case. Nobody else is going to get up there and say

anything. Then-- And then it boils down to his confession too. The confession and the

16 year old are the two main pieces of evidence. I don’t know what a jury is going to

do with it. David and Alan are good lawyers and they’re gonna give him a good

defense. But no I haven’t gone to see Shaun several, several times. But that’s just

my style. I’ve taken, I don’t know, 6 or 7 phone calls from him.

I’m going to see him for a good hour or more before his next court date and I’ll drive

home all of these things with him. I don’t want him to get frustrated and think nothings

going on-

Laverne: That’s exactly what’s happening.

Danny: And I know that’s what going on because the last time I talked to him that’s

exactly how he sounded. He’s telling me, “I want to see everything you’re doing.” And

I said, “Shaun you have seen everything and I’ll show you everything. I have nothing

to hide. I’ve a whole

pile of stuff for you here. Go to the law library if you want too. That’s fine.”

Gina: I have a concern. I didn’t hear her statement but, what I’m told is the girl, initially,

sat with the police and it seems as though she is being coaxed or coached into what to

say. Isn’t it illegal to ask the witness leading questions.

Danny: It isn’t illegal but it’s a darn sorry police tactic; let’s put it that way. It’s not

illegal. I think what you are talking about is in the police report there is a summary of

what the officer thinks she said. Here. I’ll read a passage. And it does sound very

strange--and it so exaggerated.

Gina: So your saying it’s not illegal.

Danny: It’s not illegal to ask leading questions.

Gina: Couldn’t it be argued--

Danny: It could be attacked in a court room as being suggestive and bad, leading

investigative tactic. But it’s not a law. Here is detective Swaim and the other guy.

Shaun entered the room with a mask on and told them be quiet and don’t say nothing.

Where’s the money. Where’s the guns, the dope. They told him there’s none in the

house. She referred to him as Kiki. He said you’re a lying bitch. I’m not Kiki.

Gina: Excuse me. What are you reading? Is that from the police--

Danny: Yes, this is uh--Sergeant Swaim writing what he thinks the version is. His

summary. Windeon came into the room. Had his T-shirt pulled up over his nose.

Covered the bottom half of his face... They switched guns. Shaun pulled the slide

back on the safety -- The girls gathered around the mom. Shaun came back in yelled

about the money. Shaun got under the bed. Looking under the bed points the pistol at

them... Starts looking under the bed saying I’m unhappy. I’m not getting any money

or jewelry. Shaun dumped out the purse. Windeon came back in...I’m going to kill this

bitch. Which is absolutely the most damning statement. I’m sure David will agree. I’m

sure they will argue he had intent to kill her. He was talking about it. He says Shaun

told the woman he’s gone have to pistol whip her. Windeon told them both to lie down

on the bed.... “You’re lying. You’re lying. Shut up bitch.” Windeon pulled the trigger

and shot her. Shot her twice.

Well, nobody ever told the police that he pulled the trigger, you know. That’s them just

jumping to their conclusions. Right? You get no details, at all, that are consistent with

this ladies statement. Windeon shot her. It doesn’t say anything at all about where

Shaun was. Didn’t say whether he was standing right besides him. Didn’t say he’s

going out of the room. He should’ve said in there the sixteen year old witness said her

face was faced down in the bed. She didn’t see the shooting. She didn’t see him pull

the trigger. She didn’t see where Shaun Sanders was standing. Of course, he’s not

going to put all that in there because he can’t. So, yeah. This is a police report. It’s

not sworn testimony under oath out a court room. . So, on paper-- On paper, this is

what the DA, the grand jury had said. On paper, it all sounds a lot worse than what it

was, particularly on Shaun’s side. A lot of times, you’ll got to get in-- You’ve got to

fight. You got to get in a jury trial to get to the heart of everything. You know. Shaun’s

feeling frustrated

This courts moving real slow. This court is crowded. In some other court, Windeon

would have already have been through trial and we would be through with Shaun’s trial

by now. In some of these other courts-- Every court, there’s like 22 different courts

and all are different. Some more slower than others.

Gina: Do you have any idea when he will be given a court date?

Danny: A trial date.

Gina: A trial date, yeah.

Danny: He’ll get one, you know-- He’ll get one after Windeon’s trial. And what may

happen is-is right after Windeon’s trial they may call us in and say: Okay. We’re

going to agree to a reduce sentence, aggravated robbery and 30 years. What ever

they can offer. And then Shaun’s got to make a decision. Can I live with that long or

do I want a jury trial and let a jury decide it? But, I’m telling you, you know, even if

they do they aren’t going to offer any thing light. 30, 40, 50. It’s going to be something

ridiculous, which means he’ll have to do half of it before he gets out. And, you know, I

certainly hope they would offer him something reasonable. I don’t have that much

confidence they will offer him something reasonable because someone was killed, and

that’s the bad news of it. So, we may have to end up going to a jury trial anyway. And

if that’s the case we will go in there fighting. And who knows. We may go into a jury

trial and finally end up with aggravated robbery and the jury may give him 60 years. I

mean, it could happen. It’s within the realm of possibilities. He has to decide whether

he wants to take what they are offering him. If he doesn’t like it, go to trial. That’s

what happens. You either have an agreement or you don’t. So, that’s what’ll happen.

Any thing else?

Gina: Yes. So, when I go back and talk to Shaun, the main thing I should go back and

tell Shaun is as of right now your waiting to see what’s happening with Windeon’s case

to know exactly--

Danny: No, no that’s not entirely what I said. I think if you said that he’d get frustrated

and say: Oh, he’s not going to do anything. I’m saying Windeon’s trial is going to be

very important for everybody to watch for two reasons: One for Windeon’s sake and

number two I will be watching it closely particularly to see how the sixteen year old

testifies. And I think what happens in Windeon’s trial will be important as to whether

the DA is going to reduce or not and Shaun needs to know they don’t have any

motivation too. They don’t have no real reason to want to reduce his case because

they are being to cocky and stubborn and that’s just the way it’s going to be. And I

don’t think there’s anything I can do, at this point or any lawyer can do, to change their

stance on that. I mean I’ve petitioned every... from the very beginning. You know,

from here on out were just going to have to be patient, that’s all. So, tell him that I’m

going to come and see him and tell him to be patient. I know it’s not easy being there

in jail. He’s getting credit while he’s in there. He’s gonna do some time. He’s gonna

do at least four years on his probation anyway. So, on his probation that’s automatic.

So he’s getting credit. He just needs to hang in there. Y’all need to hang in there too.

Gina: Yeah.

Danny: And I understand your being concerned is one thing but don’t be scared of

what I’m doing-- or not doing.

Laverne: You need to think about-- I have two children in there and it’s nothing else-- It’s

hard. You understand. It’s not easy, for a mother.

Danny: I understand.

Once Shaun had been appointed a new attorney for his appeal he immediately began to express his desire to have a new trial.  He began to tell him of the ineffective counsel and bad decision made by the judge.  Moore was not interested in filing for a New Trial nor interested in filing on the basis of ineffective assistance of counsel. He did file a motion. It made one point. After its denial, Shaun was in correspondence with his attorney constantly raising the same concerns

• That Moore know the discrepancies of his case and trial attorney
• That Moore get him a copy of his transcript
• That Moore not file his brief before his having a chance to view it.

The transcript was finished in April. Gina contacted Moore about getting Shaun a copy. He charged him $400.00 to have copies of the transcript that he borrowed. July 4,  Gina visited his office, paid him the money. At that point, it was discovered the jury instructions were missing.  He informed Gina that he had not yet read Shaun’s case because his time was being occupied by his dying father n law in a hospice. He also stated that Gina should “move on” and forget about Shaun. Gina and Moore began to discuss Easterling’s behavior and Moore justified it. Lastly, she begged him not to file the brief before allowing Shaun the opportunity to present the facts not known and presented in his trial. He said, “No.”

After this discussion, Gina asked Laverne to accompany her, as a witness, to Moore’s office when she returned the information that he could be tape-recorded; hopefully refusing to talk to the family or consult his client.

This is a meeting held between the appellate attorney Roland Moore, Laverne Sanders and Gina Gilder in the reception area of Moore’s office, July 11, 2000.

(Moore walks in and hands Laverne some papers)

Moore:  Uh, is that box going to make it?

Gina:  No, I hope you’ve got another one.

Gina:  You only have…there’s two copies right.

Laverne:  There is three different things. 

Moore:  No, No I don’t.  Why don’t ya’ll just leave it and I’ll bring it up…

Gina:  What is?  What’s?  (asking about the papers handed to Laverne)

Moore:  That’s the brief and those two things are the two supplements that you wanted on the-- the two jury instructions they furnished to the courts and the supplements.  Okay, so. 

Laverne:  This is what you offered, right?

Moore:  This is what I sent the appellate court yeah, and he has already gotten a copy of it.  I sent it to him…he got it.

Gina:  Oh, you’ve already sent it?

Moore:  Yeah.

Gina:  Have you sent this?

Moore:  NO…

Laverne:  So, you say…  I’m sorry to hear about your father n law; she told me about your father n law passing.  So you don’t have anytime to spend with us at this time.

Moore:  No.  No.  If you all have any add--  or if he has any additions to add to the brief please send me a letter.  I will sit down and go thru it, do the necessary research, and I’ll respond by letter.

Laverne:  Okay--

Moore: If there is anything noteworthy or meritory  to an overruling I will be happy to file a supplemental brief  to add to what ever I have already filed. 

Laverne:  Is there any time that you can sit down and talk with  us--

Moore:  No, no I am not going to do that   I just don’t have time to do it.  I have too many other clients.   Okay, in an appointed case I am not under any obligation to sit down with the family and explain anything.  My only obligation is to represent him.  So, that’s all I can do.  I’ve got someone on death row  and a bunch of other stuff.  I just can’t simply do it.  Not only that but it wouldn’t do any good.  So if you have questions  if you would submit them to me in writing and if I have a minute I will do the necessary research and reply.  But I can’t…I don’t have time to sit down and talk about it.  NO.

Gina:  I just have one thing.  You filed the brief?

Moore:  That’s right.

Gina:  We were under the impression that you were going to give him the opportunity to--

Moore:  No, I specifically told him that I would not do that.  I don’t know any lawyer who co-writes briefs with inmates.  We do not have hybrid representation in the state of Texas…  I never submit the brief in advance to clients.  I file the best brief I can.  Incline inmate’s criticisms or suggestions afterwards.  So, far I have not had to do this, if its an idea a client had, never had to file a supplemental brief.    I have had to file supplemental briefs when the case came down or if I look at the case again and saw something and added to it.  But I’ve never had anything by client.  So, if there is something, the court will accept a  supplemental brief, which will just say supplemental brief.  It will be that brief plus whatever makes the point. 

It will be two or three months for the state to return a reply.

Gina:  You wrote him the initial letter indicating that you--

Moore:  I never do that ever.  Never have, never will.

Gina:  Okay  if you say so.  I am not going to argue with you at this point.

Moore:  Absolutely a waste of time.

(Moore turns to walk out of the room)

Gina:  But, if you would give me a second there is one thing you may want to know

Moore:  Windeon’s case was brought back and some of the stuff that was brought up in Shaun’s trial was brought out by his appeal.  And I just wanted you to know that.

Moore: What?  Who?  Your saying that Windeon’s case has been brought back…it has been reversed.

Gina:  NO.  They did make a decision on his sentence and he is going to be doing instead of--

Laverne:  Day be day 30 It is 15, instead of 30.

Gina:  because they threw out some of what--Shaun’s --

Laverne:  Yeah-- 

(Moore turns and walks out of the room)

Laverne:  the lawyer called me. 

(Says something from the other room)

Moore: (Inaudible)

Laverne:  Okay, thank you so much. 

(Gina and Laverne leave the office)

Gina:  He gave me just what I needed.  Want to say hi to the camera?

Laverne:  Hi.